11 ms·

What should a game studio to do counter this and make its employees safe from it?

chillingeffect 12y ago
Protip: Form an all-female software company. Gender-discriminatory hiring practices don't apply to small companies. See Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (42 U.S.C. 2000e and following). Title VII applies to employers that fit into the following categories: private employers with at least 15 employees. 14 Women can get together and not hire any men if they want. They can make software for women and get rich and support their families if they want. They don't need men. They can make this completely public, legally. 14 people not big enough? Form a second 14-woman company and subcontract out to them.
- chaostheory 12y ago
  Reverse discrimination isn't much of an answer. It's just a temporary hack that doesn't fix the real problem.
  - chillingeffect 12y ago
    Yes, and plastic doesn't conduct electricity well, so why keep trying to force electricity through it? The problem as stated was "How can I make everyone in my game studio behave the way I want?" That is like sending electricity through plastic. The real problem is: "How can I earn a living to feed my family doing what I love to do in a safe environment?" My answer is the answer to the real problem. If you think you can keep sending electricity through plastic and make it work, it's worse than my "temporary hack" which is only "temporary" as long as the Constitution is in effect. My answer brings new information to the table which most people don't know. I'm sick of these threads coming up over and over again and I've offered a fresh formulation with new ideas that people can start to use right away.
    - chaostheory 12y ago
      A conductor whose properties don't change is a bad analogy to the human psych, which can change for better or worse depending on the environment. > The problem as stated was "How can I make everyone in my game studio behave the way I want?" That is like sending electricity through plastic. No it isn't. You can influence it or change it through culture and rules. We're not static machines.
      - georgiapeach 12y ago
        Great. If you truly believe that human thought and behavior can be changed, go ahead and change your own. Stop getting offended by trivial things. You're the problem, so stop being a problem.
        chaostheory 12y ago
        I'm confused. Did you respond to the right post? Where did I post in this thread that I was offended by something?
        georgiapeach 12y ago
        You're trying to police ideas and behaviors that offend you. You don't have the right to do that. That's unacceptable. Police your own, instead.
        chaostheory 12y ago
        > You're trying to police ideas and behaviors that offend you. Again where in this specific thread did you read that? In this thread, I'm questioning the long term logic of someone else's idea of what you would call "policing". Have you read your own comments on this thread? I find it ironic that you're essentially doing the same thing that you accuse me of doing.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
spyglass 12y ago
Safe from what? People's right to free speech? Abolish the Constitution, I guess.
- kaonashi 12y ago
  Death and rape threats are not protected speech.
  - georgiapeach 12y ago
    If you think you have a case, file charges. But that would be inconvenient if you made up the fiction of harassment to push your agenda or sell your product, wouldn't it?
    - kaonashi 12y ago
      I guess I know how you like to spend your free time. Maybe you should get a life instead of harassing women.
      - georgiapeach 12y ago
        How does that answer the objection I raised? It doesn't. It's pure ad hominem. And for that, you lose by default. Thanks for your time, anyway.
        kaonashi 12y ago
        Objection? I think you mean denial.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  The right to free speech does not entail the right to stalk, harass, and threaten. There are long established limits.
  - georgiapeach 12y ago
eli 12y ago
I think that's a good question, but what practical things can an employer do here? The harassment isn't really happening "at" work, it's coming in through tumblr and personal blogs. And (I hope!!) the people sending these threats are not other employees.
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  Actually, it happens through various mediums gaming companies control, such as in-game communication, forums, and the like. Companies can, and should, take vigorous legal action against customers who issue such threats. It would be a good start.
  - eli 12y ago
    No offense, but did you read the article? It's about women who are harassed for working in the game industry, not playing games. I agree with you, though, that game companies should generally take a hard line on abusive in-game behavior.
    - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
      No offense, but I think you misread my comment, which did not specifically single out women gamers. Women who work at game companies receive threats through the channels I mentioned with some frequency, because they have access to them.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  The employer has more resources than the employee. Lawyers and private investigators would be a start. If I ran a company and found out my customers were sending death threats to my staff, I wouldn't care where it occurred and would throw a good amount of resources at finding out who they were, having them prosecuted, and then publicising the results as a sort of modern version of putting heads on spikes. edit - though I would go to the person making the threats and give them the opportunity to make amends first before involving any level of publicity or authority.
falcolas 12y ago
Perhaps hire fewer employees right out of college for crap salaries, and foster an environment where senior employees with families can work? There is simply very little diversity in applicants who apply for videogame jobs, and if your entire employee base is comprised solely of these applicants, it's going to become an echo chamber. The people who would not stand for this type of behavior are typically not those who would stand for 80+ hours a week of work at $25,000 salaries. Build a diverse employment environment with your employees spanning the spectrum in terms of both age and gender, and the problems will become more and more self-righting. As an anecdote, the only environment where that kind of inter-personal discussion was reinforced and accepted was one where the majority of employees were just out of college. Every other company where the majority of employees are over 30 has not tolerated this behavior at the employee level.
- EarthLaunch 12y ago
  That is off-topic. That cliche about the game industry is irrelevant to this question. These verbal attacks are from outside the work environment, and have no awareness of the composition of the company. And these attacks do happen to mature teams and people, I've seen it.
  - falcolas 12y ago
    > That is off-topic. That cliche about the game industry is irrelevant to this question. I disagree. A team's composition is the only thing that matters when it comes to minimizing this sort of behavior towards co-workers (whether in or outside work). And a team which is comprised of people who have not experienced a professional work environment can not be expected to be professional. It's the same reason we don't expect interns to be immediately familiar with the reality of programming in a business; they have no context of business reality. I honestly believe that it's fair to say that vast majority of people will act poorly, when the action has no (or few) repercussions; it's why we have easily-pickable locks on our houses, to deter the 98% of people who would steal small items if there were no barriers or consequences. Diversity and professionalism are the locks to deter people from behaving poorly in a work environment. Of course, this leaves the small minority who would act poorly regardless of the repercussions, their behavior can only be resolved through rules and contracts regardless of the team size or composition. The most you can ever hope to do is prevent the majority of attacks, and penalize the minority appropriately.
Jemaclus 12y ago
I think the best thing to do as far as internal harassment goes is to basically have a no tolerance policy from the higher-ups. Not so much a "you'll get fired" thing but having everyone step up and say "Hey, that's not cool" when someone makes a sexist joke. At my job, we had a guy for awhile who would post funny pictures in chat. Every once in awhile, he'd post something NSFW (not necessarily nudity) and all the guys would just say "lol" and the women wouldn't respond at all. What should have happened (and I'm guilty of not doing this) is that all of the other men should have stepped in and said "Hey, you know, that's not cool." A lot of why this kind of stuff happens, I think, is that there's a sort of acceptance implied by the fact that so few men speak out about it. We just let it happen. We frown inside -- or maybe we really think it's funny! -- but we never say "Don't do that." A strong culture of morality, of speaking up when something is wrong, would go a long way to helping foster a safe, secure atmosphere. Public shaming will stop that behavior in its tracks. Eventually, either the harassment stops or that person leaves. In the case of my coworker, I don't think he really thought things through. I don't think he meant to be offensive or post sexually harassing things, I think he just honestly thought they were funny and posted them. That doesn't make it okay, but it doesn't mean he needs to be fired, either. He just needed to be told "That's not cool" enough times to make it stick. As far as external harassment goes, like the ones in the article, I'm not really sure. I think we as a community need to just stand up against this type of behavior, but it's hard when the harassment is all private, like via email or text messages. TL;DR Say "That's not cool" when bad shit goes on.
- gknoy 12y ago
  Great point. I know that when I see mildly inappropriate, my first reaction is to laugh, even if it's not always the right reaction. My kids are at the age where they make poop and fart jokes, and I confess that I find them funny. I fear I will always find them funny. I am unable to be upset when my kids swear -- even if I don't think they should be using those particular words. (Was there ever a more sincere expression of three year old frustration than when you overhear them saying, "Fucking _bummer_"?) But, at work, it feels like there's a different line. The things I would laugh at if I saw them on my Facebook feed (linked by ladies or men) would make me uncomfortable to encounter at work. The mild "so to speak" banter, or the (non-sexual) mild harassment that men and women friends have had has always been funny, but I feel weird when I hear it at work. My inner dialog is usually, "I'm not offended, but ... is that okay? Are we allowed to joke about ... ?" I tend to listen a lot more than I speak at work, as you can probably tell. ;)

Protip: Form an all-female software company. Gender-discriminatory hiring practices don't apply to small companies. See Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (42 U.S.C. 2000e and following). Title VII applies to employers that fit into the following categories: private employers with at least 15 employees. 14 Women can get together and not hire any men if they want. They can make software for women and get rich and support their families if they want. They don't need men. They can make this completely public, legally. 14 people not big enough? Form a second 14-woman company and subcontract out to them.

chaostheory 12y ago
Reverse discrimination isn't much of an answer. It's just a temporary hack that doesn't fix the real problem.
- chillingeffect 12y ago
  Yes, and plastic doesn't conduct electricity well, so why keep trying to force electricity through it? The problem as stated was "How can I make everyone in my game studio behave the way I want?" That is like sending electricity through plastic. The real problem is: "How can I earn a living to feed my family doing what I love to do in a safe environment?" My answer is the answer to the real problem. If you think you can keep sending electricity through plastic and make it work, it's worse than my "temporary hack" which is only "temporary" as long as the Constitution is in effect. My answer brings new information to the table which most people don't know. I'm sick of these threads coming up over and over again and I've offered a fresh formulation with new ideas that people can start to use right away.
  - chaostheory 12y ago
    A conductor whose properties don't change is a bad analogy to the human psych, which can change for better or worse depending on the environment. > The problem as stated was "How can I make everyone in my game studio behave the way I want?" That is like sending electricity through plastic. No it isn't. You can influence it or change it through culture and rules. We're not static machines.
    - georgiapeach 12y ago
      Great. If you truly believe that human thought and behavior can be changed, go ahead and change your own. Stop getting offended by trivial things. You're the problem, so stop being a problem.
      - chaostheory 12y ago
        I'm confused. Did you respond to the right post? Where did I post in this thread that I was offended by something?
        georgiapeach 12y ago
        You're trying to police ideas and behaviors that offend you. You don't have the right to do that. That's unacceptable. Police your own, instead.
        chaostheory 12y ago
        > You're trying to police ideas and behaviors that offend you. Again where in this specific thread did you read that? In this thread, I'm questioning the long term logic of someone else's idea of what you would call "policing". Have you read your own comments on this thread? I find it ironic that you're essentially doing the same thing that you accuse me of doing.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

spyglass 12y ago

Safe from what? People's right to free speech? Abolish the Constitution, I guess.

kaonashi 12y ago
Death and rape threats are not protected speech.
- georgiapeach 12y ago
  If you think you have a case, file charges. But that would be inconvenient if you made up the fiction of harassment to push your agenda or sell your product, wouldn't it?
  - kaonashi 12y ago
    I guess I know how you like to spend your free time. Maybe you should get a life instead of harassing women.
    - georgiapeach 12y ago
      How does that answer the objection I raised? It doesn't. It's pure ad hominem. And for that, you lose by default. Thanks for your time, anyway.
      - kaonashi 12y ago
        Objection? I think you mean denial.
ceejayoz 12y ago
The right to free speech does not entail the right to stalk, harass, and threaten. There are long established limits.
- georgiapeach 12y ago

eli 12y ago

I think that's a good question, but what practical things can an employer do here? The harassment isn't really happening "at" work, it's coming in through tumblr and personal blogs. And (I hope!!) the people sending these threats are not other employees.

Iftheshoefits 12y ago
Actually, it happens through various mediums gaming companies control, such as in-game communication, forums, and the like. Companies can, and should, take vigorous legal action against customers who issue such threats. It would be a good start.
- eli 12y ago
  No offense, but did you read the article? It's about women who are harassed for working in the game industry, not playing games. I agree with you, though, that game companies should generally take a hard line on abusive in-game behavior.
  - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
    No offense, but I think you misread my comment, which did not specifically single out women gamers. Women who work at game companies receive threats through the channels I mentioned with some frequency, because they have access to them.
lotsofmangos 12y ago
The employer has more resources than the employee. Lawyers and private investigators would be a start. If I ran a company and found out my customers were sending death threats to my staff, I wouldn't care where it occurred and would throw a good amount of resources at finding out who they were, having them prosecuted, and then publicising the results as a sort of modern version of putting heads on spikes. edit - though I would go to the person making the threats and give them the opportunity to make amends first before involving any level of publicity or authority.

falcolas 12y ago

Perhaps hire fewer employees right out of college for crap salaries, and foster an environment where senior employees with families can work? There is simply very little diversity in applicants who apply for videogame jobs, and if your entire employee base is comprised solely of these applicants, it's going to become an echo chamber. The people who would not stand for this type of behavior are typically not those who would stand for 80+ hours a week of work at $25,000 salaries. Build a diverse employment environment with your employees spanning the spectrum in terms of both age and gender, and the problems will become more and more self-righting. As an anecdote, the only environment where that kind of inter-personal discussion was reinforced and accepted was one where the majority of employees were just out of college. Every other company where the majority of employees are over 30 has not tolerated this behavior at the employee level.

EarthLaunch 12y ago
That is off-topic. That cliche about the game industry is irrelevant to this question. These verbal attacks are from outside the work environment, and have no awareness of the composition of the company. And these attacks do happen to mature teams and people, I've seen it.
- falcolas 12y ago
  > That is off-topic. That cliche about the game industry is irrelevant to this question. I disagree. A team's composition is the only thing that matters when it comes to minimizing this sort of behavior towards co-workers (whether in or outside work). And a team which is comprised of people who have not experienced a professional work environment can not be expected to be professional. It's the same reason we don't expect interns to be immediately familiar with the reality of programming in a business; they have no context of business reality. I honestly believe that it's fair to say that vast majority of people will act poorly, when the action has no (or few) repercussions; it's why we have easily-pickable locks on our houses, to deter the 98% of people who would steal small items if there were no barriers or consequences. Diversity and professionalism are the locks to deter people from behaving poorly in a work environment. Of course, this leaves the small minority who would act poorly regardless of the repercussions, their behavior can only be resolved through rules and contracts regardless of the team size or composition. The most you can ever hope to do is prevent the majority of attacks, and penalize the minority appropriately.

Jemaclus 12y ago

I think the best thing to do as far as internal harassment goes is to basically have a no tolerance policy from the higher-ups. Not so much a "you'll get fired" thing but having everyone step up and say "Hey, that's not cool" when someone makes a sexist joke. At my job, we had a guy for awhile who would post funny pictures in chat. Every once in awhile, he'd post something NSFW (not necessarily nudity) and all the guys would just say "lol" and the women wouldn't respond at all. What should have happened (and I'm guilty of not doing this) is that all of the other men should have stepped in and said "Hey, you know, that's not cool." A lot of why this kind of stuff happens, I think, is that there's a sort of acceptance implied by the fact that so few men speak out about it. We just let it happen. We frown inside -- or maybe we really think it's funny! -- but we never say "Don't do that." A strong culture of morality, of speaking up when something is wrong, would go a long way to helping foster a safe, secure atmosphere. Public shaming will stop that behavior in its tracks. Eventually, either the harassment stops or that person leaves. In the case of my coworker, I don't think he really thought things through. I don't think he meant to be offensive or post sexually harassing things, I think he just honestly thought they were funny and posted them. That doesn't make it okay, but it doesn't mean he needs to be fired, either. He just needed to be told "That's not cool" enough times to make it stick. As far as external harassment goes, like the ones in the article, I'm not really sure. I think we as a community need to just stand up against this type of behavior, but it's hard when the harassment is all private, like via email or text messages. TL;DR Say "That's not cool" when bad shit goes on.

gknoy 12y ago
Great point. I know that when I see mildly inappropriate, my first reaction is to laugh, even if it's not always the right reaction. My kids are at the age where they make poop and fart jokes, and I confess that I find them funny. I fear I will always find them funny. I am unable to be upset when my kids swear -- even if I don't think they should be using those particular words. (Was there ever a more sincere expression of three year old frustration than when you overhear them saying, "Fucking _bummer_"?) But, at work, it feels like there's a different line. The things I would laugh at if I saw them on my Facebook feed (linked by ladies or men) would make me uncomfortable to encounter at work. The mild "so to speak" banter, or the (non-sexual) mild harassment that men and women friends have had has always been funny, but I feel weird when I hear it at work. My inner dialog is usually, "I'm not offended, but ... is that okay? Are we allowed to joke about ... ?" I tend to listen a lot more than I speak at work, as you can probably tell. ;)