7 ms·

Refuse. Do you have a problem saying no? Why are you not setting boundaries? If your home life is important to you then you need to speak your mind. Tell them '

Refuse. Do you have a problem saying no? Why are you not setting boundaries? If your home life is important to you then you need to speak your mind. Tell them 'No, I dont want your promotion, I will be going home at a reasonable time to my family'. Is that so hard? Here's another tip - accept remote positions, and remove any business education from your resume.

silverbax88 12y ago
In my experience, doing this will ultimately end up in being let go as 'not a team player'. I was in the same position as the OP many times and got tired of always getting moved out of software into more business management. When I started saying no, I was always cut loose before long. Went to companies after this occurred and didn't say no, and got right back into the same situation.
- sleeplessinSLC 12y ago
  This is pretty much in line with what happens to me. Though I don't say no, I just leave. Another commenter asked why I am having to look for work so often, it is entirely by choice. Frankly, I shouldn't be complaining as I have not been fired or laid off and a lot of others have it much harder in this job market. But getting into these situations and then looking up every 6 months and saying "Damn it, here I am again" gets old.
- ironchef 12y ago
  Anecdotally. Mine is the opposite. I've noticed the more someone tends to delegate and / or say no, the more they end up becoming respected in the organizations I've worked in. It's not that they say "That's not my job". It's more that they say "I can not take that on with my current responsibilities and perform it at a level that it deserves."
  - silverbax88 12y ago
    You are talking about something else. Saying no or delegating is not an issue - that's just managing expectations. What we are talking about is that it's not easy for companies to find people who are actually good at tech (not just faking it) and can also speak to a corporate room of C-level executives with ease. If you can do that, expect to get moved out of the engineering role within a year, unless you say no, in which case you'll be gone. The problem is, it's never worth it. The equity will always be less than the higher ups, even when it's given, and even when it actually is worth something. Side note - I was once given 150,000 shares of a company, without asking for it, and I knew it wouldn't be worth a thing. I was also given 6,000 shares of a solid company, also without asking. No equity I've ever been given was worth what the company took to get it - which is, they need what you have - just pure brain power, stress and the ability to compete at an global technical level, and to translate that into shareholder value. If I pour that much of myself into a company, it's going to be for a lot more than 50K of stock, or 100K. I've built systems that the company turned around and within a year it had netted $1.5 billion contract (yes, billion), which is what I was paid to do...but under no circumstances was I fooled into thinking I was paid what I was actually worth.
    - ironchef 12y ago
      Well...we're actually talking about two different things (or that's what I'm inferring. One side of it is what you're expounding upon (the mgmt / engineering dichotomy)...which I agree with largely (although I think there's also room in some companies to be largely tech and advance up the ranks while saying no to those other responsibilities). What I was getting at was the second aspect of it which was the "out of bounds time" alluded to when OP said "The problem is I don’t enjoy meeting with executives at 8pm over drinks to try to discuss the next big deal. I don’t like to make presentations late into the night to put in front of Venture Capital, Series A/B investors, or Executives." I was focusing on the "8pm" and "late into the night" parts of the phrase which is more lifestyle / time overreach than the other aspect. OTOH, I've been lucky enough to get stock which came out to be worth quite a bit (granted it took quite a bit of effort to make that so). I've also had the stock which was worth very little in comparison to the effort. It's often a difficult thing to weigh as one is weighing effort, the market, and a lot of external things. As a "doer", we are frequently not paid what I think we should be. To get paid that I think requires often taking on a lot more responsibilities that some of us don't often want to handle (sales, marketing, hr, legal, etc. ... ie running a company).
sleeplessinSLC 12y ago
Honestly, I do have a hard time saying no. Rarely is the conversation "We'd like to increase your responsibility, here is some more pay and a new title". It's more like "Hey, your opinion in stand up this morning was awesome, can you sit in on this meeting." This seems to lead into "You can't make it to yet another meeting about strategy with the investor's? Do you know what will happen if you're not there! It's the end of the world!" But, those are excuses that I constantly make. Your advise is solid, and much appreciated. I need to really strengthen up and just say no.
- DanielBMarkham 12y ago
  Better than saying no is using some negotiating tactics to take the pressure off you. Use an external constraint and pre-disqualify yourself. So one day when you're not being asked out, ask to have a talk with the founders. "Hey guys, had this talk with my significant other last night and they told me that while it was okay to put in some extra hours, I couldn't be burning both ends of the candle by doing both tech and business work. It makes me impossible to get along with, cranky and miserable." This sets your limits, puts the onus on some outside party, and presents the founders with a constraint at a time when the constrain is meaningless -- after all, they don't need you now. Then when an actual event comes up, gently remind them that you've already had this conversation. Offer to talk sometime during the day. Hell, have the biz folks come by the next standup. That way they can talk to the whole team. The point is, you're not trying to hurt the founders, you're just placing some reasonable constraints on what's possible and what's not possible. It's not your idea (and in reality, it's not, it's just the way you are), and it's not the end of the world. At the end of the day, you have to set limits. There are tricks to setting limits that reduce conflict. You should use them. But as long as you're needed for something you'd prefer not to do, you'll never completely eliminate that stress.
- iandanforth 12y ago
  Also, make yourself an invaluable engineer. If your strengths in business are so evident that you repeatedly get pulled in that direction you have 1. Actively hide those strengths and 2. Doggedly pursue engineering greatness. Great engineers set their own rules. One of the best I know gets in at 9 and leaves at 4. His schedule is set and no-one questions it because he's obviously a better and more productive engineer than the rest of us!

silverbax88 12y ago

In my experience, doing this will ultimately end up in being let go as 'not a team player'. I was in the same position as the OP many times and got tired of always getting moved out of software into more business management. When I started saying no, I was always cut loose before long. Went to companies after this occurred and didn't say no, and got right back into the same situation.

sleeplessinSLC 12y ago
This is pretty much in line with what happens to me. Though I don't say no, I just leave. Another commenter asked why I am having to look for work so often, it is entirely by choice. Frankly, I shouldn't be complaining as I have not been fired or laid off and a lot of others have it much harder in this job market. But getting into these situations and then looking up every 6 months and saying "Damn it, here I am again" gets old.
ironchef 12y ago
Anecdotally. Mine is the opposite. I've noticed the more someone tends to delegate and / or say no, the more they end up becoming respected in the organizations I've worked in. It's not that they say "That's not my job". It's more that they say "I can not take that on with my current responsibilities and perform it at a level that it deserves."
- silverbax88 12y ago
  You are talking about something else. Saying no or delegating is not an issue - that's just managing expectations. What we are talking about is that it's not easy for companies to find people who are actually good at tech (not just faking it) and can also speak to a corporate room of C-level executives with ease. If you can do that, expect to get moved out of the engineering role within a year, unless you say no, in which case you'll be gone. The problem is, it's never worth it. The equity will always be less than the higher ups, even when it's given, and even when it actually is worth something. Side note - I was once given 150,000 shares of a company, without asking for it, and I knew it wouldn't be worth a thing. I was also given 6,000 shares of a solid company, also without asking. No equity I've ever been given was worth what the company took to get it - which is, they need what you have - just pure brain power, stress and the ability to compete at an global technical level, and to translate that into shareholder value. If I pour that much of myself into a company, it's going to be for a lot more than 50K of stock, or 100K. I've built systems that the company turned around and within a year it had netted $1.5 billion contract (yes, billion), which is what I was paid to do...but under no circumstances was I fooled into thinking I was paid what I was actually worth.
  - ironchef 12y ago
    Well...we're actually talking about two different things (or that's what I'm inferring. One side of it is what you're expounding upon (the mgmt / engineering dichotomy)...which I agree with largely (although I think there's also room in some companies to be largely tech and advance up the ranks while saying no to those other responsibilities). What I was getting at was the second aspect of it which was the "out of bounds time" alluded to when OP said "The problem is I don’t enjoy meeting with executives at 8pm over drinks to try to discuss the next big deal. I don’t like to make presentations late into the night to put in front of Venture Capital, Series A/B investors, or Executives." I was focusing on the "8pm" and "late into the night" parts of the phrase which is more lifestyle / time overreach than the other aspect. OTOH, I've been lucky enough to get stock which came out to be worth quite a bit (granted it took quite a bit of effort to make that so). I've also had the stock which was worth very little in comparison to the effort. It's often a difficult thing to weigh as one is weighing effort, the market, and a lot of external things. As a "doer", we are frequently not paid what I think we should be. To get paid that I think requires often taking on a lot more responsibilities that some of us don't often want to handle (sales, marketing, hr, legal, etc. ... ie running a company).

sleeplessinSLC 12y ago

Honestly, I do have a hard time saying no. Rarely is the conversation "We'd like to increase your responsibility, here is some more pay and a new title". It's more like "Hey, your opinion in stand up this morning was awesome, can you sit in on this meeting." This seems to lead into "You can't make it to yet another meeting about strategy with the investor's? Do you know what will happen if you're not there! It's the end of the world!" But, those are excuses that I constantly make. Your advise is solid, and much appreciated. I need to really strengthen up and just say no.

DanielBMarkham 12y ago
Better than saying no is using some negotiating tactics to take the pressure off you. Use an external constraint and pre-disqualify yourself. So one day when you're not being asked out, ask to have a talk with the founders. "Hey guys, had this talk with my significant other last night and they told me that while it was okay to put in some extra hours, I couldn't be burning both ends of the candle by doing both tech and business work. It makes me impossible to get along with, cranky and miserable." This sets your limits, puts the onus on some outside party, and presents the founders with a constraint at a time when the constrain is meaningless -- after all, they don't need you now. Then when an actual event comes up, gently remind them that you've already had this conversation. Offer to talk sometime during the day. Hell, have the biz folks come by the next standup. That way they can talk to the whole team. The point is, you're not trying to hurt the founders, you're just placing some reasonable constraints on what's possible and what's not possible. It's not your idea (and in reality, it's not, it's just the way you are), and it's not the end of the world. At the end of the day, you have to set limits. There are tricks to setting limits that reduce conflict. You should use them. But as long as you're needed for something you'd prefer not to do, you'll never completely eliminate that stress.
iandanforth 12y ago
Also, make yourself an invaluable engineer. If your strengths in business are so evident that you repeatedly get pulled in that direction you have 1. Actively hide those strengths and 2. Doggedly pursue engineering greatness. Great engineers set their own rules. One of the best I know gets in at 9 and leaves at 4. His schedule is set and no-one questions it because he's obviously a better and more productive engineer than the rest of us!