8 ms·

No Russian

119 points by lordmax 12y ago

lafar6502 12y ago
Great read, I like how author's perspective and distance helps him see through a layer of lies and propaganda. I have russian and ukrainian friends and they confirm everything said in the post, they left their home countries because they didn't feel safe there.
acqq 12y ago
See however the previous extreme plane shootings, around 370 deaths total, by the US and Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 "shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988," "All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died" "The Fogarty report stated, "The data from USS Vincennes tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence information, corroborate the fact that [Iran Air Flight 655] was on a normal commercial air flight plan profile, in the assigned airway, squawking Mode III 6760, on a continuous ascent in altitude from take-off at Bandar Abbas to shoot-down."" and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 "shot down by the Ukrainian military over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001" "Ukraine eventually admitted that the disaster was probably caused by an errant missile fired by its armed forces.[1] Ukraine ended up paying $15 million to surviving family members of 78 victims ($200,000 per victim)."
- beachstartup 12y ago
  also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902
  - acqq 12y ago
    These two are even older, from 1978 and 1983 respectively. Also note that the 007 was some 500 miles away and that 902 was a few thousands miles away from its regular path. Not so with 655, 812 or MH17.
- baddox 12y ago
  Most people will probably say the key difference is that the US incident was a mistaken attempt to defend an imminent attack, rather than a terrorist attack. Being perhaps more cynical, I would say the key difference is that Russia is not the biggest kid on the playground.
  - piroflip 12y ago
    Summing all the evidence, I would say this was a mistake shot down too.
    - baddox 12y ago
      But presumably not a situation where the attackers mistakenly thought they were shooting down an aircraft that was about to attack them.
      - homhomhom 12y ago
        They definitely thought it was an Ukrainian military transport plane. I don't see how the distinction between enemy military transport plane and enemy fighter/bomber is of any importance here.
        acqq 12y ago
        How do you know what "they" thought?
        homhomhom 12y ago
        Version about rebels taking passenger plane for AN-26 seems plausible, considering that rebels themselves seemed to believe it in the first minutes after the event (I am judging by the reaction of their mouthpieces on Russian internet which I happened to see with my own eyes). Anyway that's not the point, the point is that even if (people may still doubt) the rebels downed the plane, at worst they thought of it as of an Ukrainian military plane, ie they had no intention to kill noncombatants, it was definitely not an 'act of terrorism' as Ukrainian govt wants to paint it.
- lclarkmichalek 12y ago
  This article isn't actually about the shooting down of any flights. It's about the more general way the Russian government operates. Maybe it would have been a better article had it not mentioned any flights, lest the conversation be derailed by debate over the causes & outcomes of the recent tragedy.
  - acqq 12y ago
    > This article isn't actually about the shooting down of any flights. Have you read it? It actually writes: "The mass murder of passengers & crew of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 using Russian’s weapons and (most likely) by hands of Russian military squad exposed to the world that Russia is now complicit in committing crimes against humanity." Now what do you think about proved US and Ukrainian plane shootings? Aren't they crimes?
    - hackerboos 12y ago
      >Aren't they crimes? Absolutely and it's unlikely that those incidents resulted in sanctions against those countries. It just highlights how hypercritical the US, Ukraine and the rest of the international community are. All three of these states commit crimes - none of them should be excused.
      - acqq 12y ago
        Should we consider them all the "crimes against humanity"? Is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(1998) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(19... "on February 3, 1998, near the Italian town of Cavalese, a ski resort in the Dolomites" "Twenty people died when a United States Marine Corps EA-6B Prowler aircraft cut a cable supporting a gondola of an aerial tramway." "the subsequent acquittal of the pilots, strained relations between the United States and Italy." Or is this "just a human error"? Where to draw the line?
      - cafard 12y ago
        The US never denied that it had shot down the Iranian 737. It paid compensation to the families of victims. Which is the third state you have in mind?
- Svip 12y ago
  In the case of the Siberia Airlines Flight, I do not find it unlikely that Russia pressured them to admit it was them. At the time, Ukraine was basically a Russian satellite state. The evidence is inclusive, but Ukraine just suddenly admitted it was them.
iliaznk 12y ago
As much as most of it may be true, Russia's fault in the Malaysian plane shoot-down hasn't been proved, even the crash site hasn't been examined properly, isn't it too early for such conclusions?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- lordmax 12y ago
  There is a massive amount of secondary evidence, all of which points in the same direction. Here is few research resources, unfortunately they are all in russian; perhaps google translate will recover enough meaning for it to be useful: http://www.solonin.org/article_sbityiy-boing-medlenno-i-po http://www.solonin.org/article_sbityiy-boing-medlenno-i-po http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/code/1362312-echo/ http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/code/1362312-echo/ http://gordonua.com/publications/Belkovskiy-Vse-plany-Putina-otnositelno-Ukrainy-vzorvalis-vmeste-s-Boeing-On-v-yarosti-a-v-Kremle-panika-32388.html http://gordonua.com/publications/Belkovskiy-Vse-plany-Putina... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiZ43EunqvM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiZ43EunqvM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ludDRApl7nU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ludDRApl7nU
- jakozaur 12y ago
  It wasn't proved, but there is not a believable alternative scenario. There are videos of transported missiles, intercepted calls, orders of obstructing access to crash site... John Kerry even says there is "Enormous amount of evidence" for that scenario. Still not 100% sure, but 99% yes.
  - iliaznk 12y ago
    Oh, come on! John Kerry says... right...
  - vezzy-fnord 12y ago
    videos of transported missiles, intercepted calls, orders of obstructing access to crash site... But do they specifically incriminate one side?
rdtsc 12y ago
> Big business is subject to federal mafia clan wars. This can be summarized with one word "corruption". Corruption that is deep, toxic, and permeates every sphere of life. From small things like getting a passport or drivers' license. What kind of grades kids will get in kindergarten, to large things like the government appropriating and stealing billion dollar companies. Corruption becomes a way of life and it spreads like a disease. It is hard to describe how it feels. You know as corrupt as US is, one can at least have a little hope that the judicial system will work. At the end of the day if someone commits murder and they are caught, you know there will probably be a good trial. In these countries (at least where I am from), one can commit murder and then there is a price you pay to the prosecutor, police, judge to make it "go way". If you start a business, and are very successful you might pop on the radar of the local mafia, who has members in the local government. They will ensure that your business has not "paid all the taxes" or that your immigration paperwork "was not in order" and kick you out of the country and take your business. Going through life you see this. Colleagues in school who fail everything and don't do work are getting top grades in a final exam. You try to pass a drivers' exam and you are getting deliberately failed with hints that a bribe is necessary for you to pass and so on. That is very stressful and it something I am not used do and don't want to be used to. Others, on the contrary, thrive and prosper in that environment.
- pfortuny 12y ago
  It is somewhat worse than just corruption. A mafia is esger to make positive harm by killing/injuring/damaging property/kidnapping... whereas corruption may just be a "hindrance". You risk your life or property if you fight a mafia, unlike fighting corruption. Although it is true that the bad extreme of corruption is a mafia.
- tomaskazemekas 12y ago
  Recent news confirm this. >> Pavel Durov the former CEO of Russia's main social network, VKontakte and founder of Telegram quit his job at the beginning of this month saying, "it has become increasingly complicated to stick to the principles we once founded our social site upon.” Speculators gave an educated guess that Russian authorities have been pushing for more and more censorship on the site. Two days later, he apparently "unresigned," but that wasn't the end of this story. >> http://arcticstartup.com/2014/04/25/lithuania-pavel-druov http://arcticstartup.com/2014/04/25/lithuania-pavel-druov
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
I honestly don't know how to feel about this. It's really just as deceptive in presenting a clear cut and linear case about the other side, as if geopolitics really are this straightforward, and not actually a cryptic clusterfuck. It's just as pandering as Russian propaganda, or any form of propaganda. That and, for what it's worth, I can see there being just as big of an incentive for Ukraine, as for Russia, to take down MH17. In fact, I found the immediate pinpointing of the blame on Russia to be strange. If they were the perpetrators, then they shot themselves in the foot. It's just a baffling and asinine strategic decision.
- quaunaut 12y ago
  The problem is, it wasn't intentional. They seem to have thought they were attacking a Ukrainian military plane. There wasn't any strategy in this.
  - jbb555 12y ago
    So they murdered the wrong people?
    - xor-ed-wolf 12y ago
      So do you think any war is a playground where they decide the outcome with a chess game?
  - gothy 12y ago
    So hitting Ukrainian planes is OK? There wasn't any kind of terrorists that I'm aware of who got access to such a sophisticated weapons. And no one of those 'monkeys' could even handle with that 'BUK'. It's obvious that only trained army team could make this launch and it's obvious for us(Ukrainians here) that after brutal annexation of Crimea , this sick freak wont stop until he gets punched in the face. He doesn't understand any other language other that rude force. Ukraine is weak, much weaker that Russia now. Mostly because the very same Russia-oriented mafia clans. Former government of Ukraine is now hiding in Russia and they wont be judged there. Russia's mission number one was to prove that Ukraine is a failed-state. This is the main reason why all this happening. Max explains the rest in his post.
bloat 12y ago
This is not a serious article. It is a rant. "The population at large is, statistically speaking, not very bright. Many are deranged from overuse of alcohol or drugs."
- pfortuny 12y ago
  Yes it is a rant and at some points quite exaggerated but usually there are only rants against mafias, not statistics.
- jwr 12y ago
  ... and yet it is a quite accurate portrayal of the current situation in Russia. I should know - I'm Polish and my country was annexed by Russia on several occasions. I would add that the western EU countries seem to have learned nothing from history. Trying to appease a country with ambitions to become an empire, that annexes neighboring countries -- let's see, haven't we seen that before?
  - egao1980 12y ago
    And if we are going back to the times of Polish annexation we can remember Polish people robbing Russia, burning Moscow, trying to put Polish dude on the throne and best part - exploitation of Ukrainians :). And yes, Poland is also known for imperial ambitions. Generally European history is full of wars and mutual blame. Take UK for example - conquered by French and ruled by German dynasty. So once again, please, stop blaming Russia, go on with your life, build better country for you to live in.
    - nazgob 12y ago
      That's what we're doing. But Russia again started changing borders of our neighbor. This is scary stuff.
      - egao1980 12y ago
        NATO is expanding and Russians were not happy about that way before current situation. Being Crimean myself I would say that so much feared 'annexation' was forced on to Russia by Crimean local establishment. Not that Russia was against it though. As a matter of fact - throughout 23 of the Ukrainian independence it was never less than 65% of Crimeans that were ready to join Russia. Ukrainian crisis is the result of building nationalistic state in the country with two different cultures, frequently incompatible. And also grave incompetence of the Ukrainian government leading to escalation of the conflict. Poland and Baltic states - these countries are outright hostile toward Russia, yes, it has historical reasons. But now it's easier to trade and use economic power than to conquer and control territory. These countries are part of EU, and Russia will never - until forced - engage in any military confrontation with them.
lanbird 12y ago
Who are you? Durov its you?:)
- lanbird 12y ago
  I was wrong. http://ain.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/204243_10150157597457191_42296_o.jpg http://ain.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/204243_101501575974...
monochr 12y ago
Seems like the stereotype of the self hating Jew now has its counterpart in the self hating Russian. While all deaths are deplorable being a world power means killing people you disagree with. And unlike the US of to a small but quickly growing extent China Russia lacks the geopolitical power to change the rules of the game.
kofejnik 12y ago
He's mostly right, although I'd correct a few important things: * Putin's approval is now at 86+%, an all-time high, * and it's universal across socio-economic classes. A lot of young bright facebook-equipped software engineers are Putin's fans. * even a lot of first-generation Russians in US absolutely love Putin, for the sense of belonging to a great empire which he gave them (finally someone stood up to evil America!) * because of the above, any dissenter is basically a pariah Just keep that in mind.
koshak 12y ago
Is HN a proper place to feed politic trolls?
- adamnemecek 12y ago
  which part is trolling?
spingsprong 12y ago
Can anyone seriously think of a reason why Ukraine, the Rebels or Russia would have downed that passenger plane on purpose? Because I can't. Whoever shot it down, obviously thought it was a military aircraft. They made a mistake. If it's a mistake, it's not murder.
- nazgob 12y ago
  If you operate AA unit without knowledge how to detect civilian planes its a bit more then mistake.
sigsergv 12y ago
He's trying to rationalize his personal hate of russians. I've heard a lot of such speeches from 1980-90 emigrants, usually they have no idea what's really going on here.
songco 12y ago
At least facebook/twitter/github/most google services not blocked in Russian....
- egao1980 12y ago
  Living in UK I can say that something is terribly wrong with freedom of speech and objectivity of mass media - Russian media reports all possible scenarios, blames Putin, Ukraine, rebels, but UK press is all focused on blaming Russia. Where's the alternative? UK media is free to blame Russia? Remember that Russian gay propaganda ban? So much noise, and at the same time Saudi Arabia executes gay people and there's no USA/UK campaign against it.
  - Lasker 12y ago
    Show me just one blame for Putin from Russian mainstream media. Or someone calling separatists a 'rebels'. They prefer to hide them under credible-sounded 'militia', you'll have to knew it if you're watching kremlin TV.
egao1980 12y ago
This is one of the typical rants by Russian immigrant who enjoyed top quality free education in USSR/Russia which made his success possible (+ no student loans), left during turmoil of 1990-2000s and still judging Russia on that bad memories basis. Article is full of clichés and gives general FOX news feel while reading. I lived in Moscow in 2011 and I'm part of that creative class he mentions and no one in my social network was supporting the protests. I doesn't mean that we are happy with all that happens - we just believe in slow and steady hard work towards better Russia and progress so far proves that it's working. Stop blaming Russia for everything - you're not USA State Department! :)
- x4m 12y ago
  Confirm that. I'm from Yekaterinburg, and Max rant seems to me just exagerated imagination of someone who haven't been here for decade.
  - xor-ed-wolf 12y ago
    It's easy to understand the author's hidden sentiment that Russia is very ineffective state currently and depends too much on natural resources export and enforcement. But what bothers me most is that all of those former Russian immigrants sit in their comfortable chairs somewhere in Nebraska and yapping endlessly while not giving a sparrow's effort to research the actual situation and suggest anything to improve it. Instead they spread xenophobia and popularize knee-jerk reactions to events. I.e. they're just hatred-filled idiots who waste our time on reading them.
- avmich 12y ago
  Max article seems spot on. The blame is on Russian brand - which is hijacked by current Russia power structure, not on the Russian people per se, even though they share the responsibility for that kind of government. Cliches here, unfortunately, are rooted in realities - it's sad, but compare Russia with a failed state is probably not too much of an exaggeration. The fact that US has its own corruption does little justification to - much bigger, in my opinion - problems in Russia.
- pas 12y ago
terranstyler 12y ago
I have quite a few problems with Western media stating that it's Putin's fault. - There is a lack of motive (seriously why would he?) - There is a lack of identity (if it were the Separatists, are they really controlled by Putin to that degree?) - The murder weapon happens to also be in the hand of the Ukrainian army (19 systems, 3 of them stationed in the range of the crash site) [2] - The Ukrainian air control obviously let the flight deviate quite a few kilometers of the "usual route" which goes south of Donetsk. [1] - The lack of prosecution in the case of Maidan snipers (and evidence against the Ukrainian gov't as being behind it) and the Odessa fire. I am not saying who it was or who it wasn't. I just state that I seriously doubt anyone who claims to know it right now. [1] https://twitter.com/VagelisKarmiros/status/489926167731142656/photo/1 https://twitter.com/VagelisKarmiros/status/48992616773114265... [2] http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/us-ukraine-crisis-airplane-buk-idUSKBN0FN03H20140718 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/us-ukraine-crisis-... 2nd paragraph
- epsylon 12y ago
  > lack of motive It was most likely a mistake. > There is a lack of identity (if it were the Separatists, are they really controlled by Putin to that degree?) Top members of the rebels group, including the leader, are Russian citizens and former members of the FSB. http://20committee.com/2014/07/19/donetsk-rebels-and-russian-intelligence/ http://20committee.com/2014/07/19/donetsk-rebels-and-russian... > The murder weapon happens to also be in the hand of the Ukrainian army (19 systems, 3 of them stationed in the range of the crash site) [2] If the Ukrainians were responsible, why are the rebels trying to cover up all the traces and why are they interfering with the international investigation? (Also, the source you quote is from Russian media, which are inherently biased, much more so than the multiple other sources whose evidence points towards Russia-backed rebels)
  - terranstyler 12y ago
    I can certainly not say you're view is wrong and I didn't know of the group membership (thanks for that). Still, my 2ct Motive: The motive "mistake" is a motive that works for both sides. Identity: The membership in the groups "Russian" and "former FSB" is at most an indication. "All former FSB members that are Russian shoot down passenger air planes" holds as much as "All Germans kill jews" and "All jews kill Palestinians" Murder weapon: The thing is, I assume Western media is as biased as Russian media. The very fact they rarely even consider Ukrainian govt participation (as they should also with the Maidan sniper shootings) makes me wonder what side I should trust less. This view is partially based on the WMD allegations in Iraq and the use of chemical weapons by Assad, both of which can be considered "false flags". Re Assad, see http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/new-study-refines-view-of-sarin-attack-in-syria.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/new-study...
timurtamerlan 12y ago
Complete and total bullshit, based on US propaganda against Russia. I live in Russia and build my second IT business here. Most of my friends are entrepreneurs from Moscow and other cities. Of course there is corruption, autocracy and alcoholism. It is there for several hundreds of years, and we have to deal with that. But situation is actually getting better with time. You can't change loves of millions of people in an instant. Propaganda is an interesting point. In fact, I think it is not strong enough to counter the massive western information war against Russia. I read BBC and NY times regularly, and constantly notice biased and one-sided view. I think that the author fall victim to the NY Times style propaganda articles about the evil Putin, connected it with his experience and decided to support it. I don'think it is a objective point of view and it does not describe reality.
- xor-ed-wolf 12y ago
  It's confirmation bias at work. People often can't control their "reptilian brain" effectively. Having some superfluous idea they only find confirmations to it all around all worse if they are emotionally unstable at the moment.
gpvos 12y ago
> If Kiev government survives, it will fairly quickly unlock economic benefits of non-mafia, free economy. ...maybe. The rest of the Ukrainian political elite is also fairly corrupt, actually. So I expect it to take a decade at the very least. See, for example, Romania and Bulgaria.
CmonDev 12y ago
"Modern Russia is not a weaker version of Soviet Union “empire of evil.” This capability is, thankfully, long gone." - empire of evil is still alive and well, after defeating the Soviet Union and is still seeking for new proper enemies (will it be you, China?).
DominikR 12y ago
This is one of the most racist articles I've read in a long time. But it's the US enemy, so I guess it's okay to write: "The population at large is, statistically speaking, not very bright. Many are deranged from overuse of alcohol or drugs." You could easily replace the word "Russian" with the N-word and post this article on some white power blog.
- un1x0nly 12y ago
  And this was written by a Russian.
lordmax 12y ago
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/19/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-victims.html?smid=tw-nytimes&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/19/world/europe/m...

119 points by lordmax 12y ago

Great read, I like how author's perspective and distance helps him see through a layer of lies and propaganda. I have russian and ukrainian friends and they confirm everything said in the post, they left their home countries because they didn't feel safe there.

acqq 12y ago

See however the previous extreme plane shootings, around 370 deaths total, by the US and Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 "shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988," "All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died" "The Fogarty report stated, "The data from USS Vincennes tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence information, corroborate the fact that [Iran Air Flight 655] was on a normal commercial air flight plan profile, in the assigned airway, squawking Mode III 6760, on a continuous ascent in altitude from take-off at Bandar Abbas to shoot-down."" and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 "shot down by the Ukrainian military over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001" "Ukraine eventually admitted that the disaster was probably caused by an errant missile fired by its armed forces.[1] Ukraine ended up paying $15 million to surviving family members of 78 victims ($200,000 per victim)."

beachstartup 12y ago
also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902
- acqq 12y ago
  These two are even older, from 1978 and 1983 respectively. Also note that the 007 was some 500 miles away and that 902 was a few thousands miles away from its regular path. Not so with 655, 812 or MH17.
baddox 12y ago
Most people will probably say the key difference is that the US incident was a mistaken attempt to defend an imminent attack, rather than a terrorist attack. Being perhaps more cynical, I would say the key difference is that Russia is not the biggest kid on the playground.
- piroflip 12y ago
  Summing all the evidence, I would say this was a mistake shot down too.
  - baddox 12y ago
    But presumably not a situation where the attackers mistakenly thought they were shooting down an aircraft that was about to attack them.
    - homhomhom 12y ago
      They definitely thought it was an Ukrainian military transport plane. I don't see how the distinction between enemy military transport plane and enemy fighter/bomber is of any importance here.
      - acqq 12y ago
        How do you know what "they" thought?
        homhomhom 12y ago
        Version about rebels taking passenger plane for AN-26 seems plausible, considering that rebels themselves seemed to believe it in the first minutes after the event (I am judging by the reaction of their mouthpieces on Russian internet which I happened to see with my own eyes). Anyway that's not the point, the point is that even if (people may still doubt) the rebels downed the plane, at worst they thought of it as of an Ukrainian military plane, ie they had no intention to kill noncombatants, it was definitely not an 'act of terrorism' as Ukrainian govt wants to paint it.
lclarkmichalek 12y ago
This article isn't actually about the shooting down of any flights. It's about the more general way the Russian government operates. Maybe it would have been a better article had it not mentioned any flights, lest the conversation be derailed by debate over the causes & outcomes of the recent tragedy.
- acqq 12y ago
  > This article isn't actually about the shooting down of any flights. Have you read it? It actually writes: "The mass murder of passengers & crew of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 using Russian’s weapons and (most likely) by hands of Russian military squad exposed to the world that Russia is now complicit in committing crimes against humanity." Now what do you think about proved US and Ukrainian plane shootings? Aren't they crimes?
  - hackerboos 12y ago
    >Aren't they crimes? Absolutely and it's unlikely that those incidents resulted in sanctions against those countries. It just highlights how hypercritical the US, Ukraine and the rest of the international community are. All three of these states commit crimes - none of them should be excused.
    - acqq 12y ago
      Should we consider them all the "crimes against humanity"? Is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(1998) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(19... "on February 3, 1998, near the Italian town of Cavalese, a ski resort in the Dolomites" "Twenty people died when a United States Marine Corps EA-6B Prowler aircraft cut a cable supporting a gondola of an aerial tramway." "the subsequent acquittal of the pilots, strained relations between the United States and Italy." Or is this "just a human error"? Where to draw the line?
    - cafard 12y ago
      The US never denied that it had shot down the Iranian 737. It paid compensation to the families of victims. Which is the third state you have in mind?
Svip 12y ago
In the case of the Siberia Airlines Flight, I do not find it unlikely that Russia pressured them to admit it was them. At the time, Ukraine was basically a Russian satellite state. The evidence is inclusive, but Ukraine just suddenly admitted it was them.

iliaznk 12y ago

As much as most of it may be true, Russia's fault in the Malaysian plane shoot-down hasn't been proved, even the crash site hasn't been examined properly, isn't it too early for such conclusions?

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
lordmax 12y ago
There is a massive amount of secondary evidence, all of which points in the same direction. Here is few research resources, unfortunately they are all in russian; perhaps google translate will recover enough meaning for it to be useful: http://www.solonin.org/article_sbityiy-boing-medlenno-i-po http://www.solonin.org/article_sbityiy-boing-medlenno-i-po http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/code/1362312-echo/ http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/code/1362312-echo/ http://gordonua.com/publications/Belkovskiy-Vse-plany-Putina-otnositelno-Ukrainy-vzorvalis-vmeste-s-Boeing-On-v-yarosti-a-v-Kremle-panika-32388.html http://gordonua.com/publications/Belkovskiy-Vse-plany-Putina... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiZ43EunqvM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiZ43EunqvM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ludDRApl7nU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ludDRApl7nU
jakozaur 12y ago
It wasn't proved, but there is not a believable alternative scenario. There are videos of transported missiles, intercepted calls, orders of obstructing access to crash site... John Kerry even says there is "Enormous amount of evidence" for that scenario. Still not 100% sure, but 99% yes.
- iliaznk 12y ago
  Oh, come on! John Kerry says... right...
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  videos of transported missiles, intercepted calls, orders of obstructing access to crash site... But do they specifically incriminate one side?

rdtsc 12y ago

> Big business is subject to federal mafia clan wars. This can be summarized with one word "corruption". Corruption that is deep, toxic, and permeates every sphere of life. From small things like getting a passport or drivers' license. What kind of grades kids will get in kindergarten, to large things like the government appropriating and stealing billion dollar companies. Corruption becomes a way of life and it spreads like a disease. It is hard to describe how it feels. You know as corrupt as US is, one can at least have a little hope that the judicial system will work. At the end of the day if someone commits murder and they are caught, you know there will probably be a good trial. In these countries (at least where I am from), one can commit murder and then there is a price you pay to the prosecutor, police, judge to make it "go way". If you start a business, and are very successful you might pop on the radar of the local mafia, who has members in the local government. They will ensure that your business has not "paid all the taxes" or that your immigration paperwork "was not in order" and kick you out of the country and take your business. Going through life you see this. Colleagues in school who fail everything and don't do work are getting top grades in a final exam. You try to pass a drivers' exam and you are getting deliberately failed with hints that a bribe is necessary for you to pass and so on. That is very stressful and it something I am not used do and don't want to be used to. Others, on the contrary, thrive and prosper in that environment.

pfortuny 12y ago
It is somewhat worse than just corruption. A mafia is esger to make positive harm by killing/injuring/damaging property/kidnapping... whereas corruption may just be a "hindrance". You risk your life or property if you fight a mafia, unlike fighting corruption. Although it is true that the bad extreme of corruption is a mafia.
tomaskazemekas 12y ago
Recent news confirm this. >> Pavel Durov the former CEO of Russia's main social network, VKontakte and founder of Telegram quit his job at the beginning of this month saying, "it has become increasingly complicated to stick to the principles we once founded our social site upon.” Speculators gave an educated guess that Russian authorities have been pushing for more and more censorship on the site. Two days later, he apparently "unresigned," but that wasn't the end of this story. >> http://arcticstartup.com/2014/04/25/lithuania-pavel-druov http://arcticstartup.com/2014/04/25/lithuania-pavel-druov

vezzy-fnord 12y ago

I honestly don't know how to feel about this. It's really just as deceptive in presenting a clear cut and linear case about the other side, as if geopolitics really are this straightforward, and not actually a cryptic clusterfuck. It's just as pandering as Russian propaganda, or any form of propaganda. That and, for what it's worth, I can see there being just as big of an incentive for Ukraine, as for Russia, to take down MH17. In fact, I found the immediate pinpointing of the blame on Russia to be strange. If they were the perpetrators, then they shot themselves in the foot. It's just a baffling and asinine strategic decision.

quaunaut 12y ago
The problem is, it wasn't intentional. They seem to have thought they were attacking a Ukrainian military plane. There wasn't any strategy in this.
- jbb555 12y ago
  So they murdered the wrong people?
  - xor-ed-wolf 12y ago
    So do you think any war is a playground where they decide the outcome with a chess game?
- gothy 12y ago
  So hitting Ukrainian planes is OK? There wasn't any kind of terrorists that I'm aware of who got access to such a sophisticated weapons. And no one of those 'monkeys' could even handle with that 'BUK'. It's obvious that only trained army team could make this launch and it's obvious for us(Ukrainians here) that after brutal annexation of Crimea , this sick freak wont stop until he gets punched in the face. He doesn't understand any other language other that rude force. Ukraine is weak, much weaker that Russia now. Mostly because the very same Russia-oriented mafia clans. Former government of Ukraine is now hiding in Russia and they wont be judged there. Russia's mission number one was to prove that Ukraine is a failed-state. This is the main reason why all this happening. Max explains the rest in his post.

bloat 12y ago

This is not a serious article. It is a rant. "The population at large is, statistically speaking, not very bright. Many are deranged from overuse of alcohol or drugs."

pfortuny 12y ago
Yes it is a rant and at some points quite exaggerated but usually there are only rants against mafias, not statistics.
jwr 12y ago
... and yet it is a quite accurate portrayal of the current situation in Russia. I should know - I'm Polish and my country was annexed by Russia on several occasions. I would add that the western EU countries seem to have learned nothing from history. Trying to appease a country with ambitions to become an empire, that annexes neighboring countries -- let's see, haven't we seen that before?
- egao1980 12y ago
  And if we are going back to the times of Polish annexation we can remember Polish people robbing Russia, burning Moscow, trying to put Polish dude on the throne and best part - exploitation of Ukrainians :). And yes, Poland is also known for imperial ambitions. Generally European history is full of wars and mutual blame. Take UK for example - conquered by French and ruled by German dynasty. So once again, please, stop blaming Russia, go on with your life, build better country for you to live in.
  - nazgob 12y ago
    That's what we're doing. But Russia again started changing borders of our neighbor. This is scary stuff.
    - egao1980 12y ago
      NATO is expanding and Russians were not happy about that way before current situation. Being Crimean myself I would say that so much feared 'annexation' was forced on to Russia by Crimean local establishment. Not that Russia was against it though. As a matter of fact - throughout 23 of the Ukrainian independence it was never less than 65% of Crimeans that were ready to join Russia. Ukrainian crisis is the result of building nationalistic state in the country with two different cultures, frequently incompatible. And also grave incompetence of the Ukrainian government leading to escalation of the conflict. Poland and Baltic states - these countries are outright hostile toward Russia, yes, it has historical reasons. But now it's easier to trade and use economic power than to conquer and control territory. These countries are part of EU, and Russia will never - until forced - engage in any military confrontation with them.

lanbird 12y ago

Who are you? Durov its you?:)

lanbird 12y ago
I was wrong. http://ain.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/204243_10150157597457191_42296_o.jpg http://ain.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/204243_101501575974...

monochr 12y ago

Seems like the stereotype of the self hating Jew now has its counterpart in the self hating Russian. While all deaths are deplorable being a world power means killing people you disagree with. And unlike the US of to a small but quickly growing extent China Russia lacks the geopolitical power to change the rules of the game.

kofejnik 12y ago

He's mostly right, although I'd correct a few important things: * Putin's approval is now at 86+%, an all-time high, * and it's universal across socio-economic classes. A lot of young bright facebook-equipped software engineers are Putin's fans. * even a lot of first-generation Russians in US absolutely love Putin, for the sense of belonging to a great empire which he gave them (finally someone stood up to evil America!) * because of the above, any dissenter is basically a pariah Just keep that in mind.

koshak 12y ago

Is HN a proper place to feed politic trolls?

adamnemecek 12y ago
which part is trolling?

spingsprong 12y ago

Can anyone seriously think of a reason why Ukraine, the Rebels or Russia would have downed that passenger plane on purpose? Because I can't. Whoever shot it down, obviously thought it was a military aircraft. They made a mistake. If it's a mistake, it's not murder.

nazgob 12y ago
If you operate AA unit without knowledge how to detect civilian planes its a bit more then mistake.

sigsergv 12y ago

He's trying to rationalize his personal hate of russians. I've heard a lot of such speeches from 1980-90 emigrants, usually they have no idea what's really going on here.

songco 12y ago

At least facebook/twitter/github/most google services not blocked in Russian....

egao1980 12y ago
Living in UK I can say that something is terribly wrong with freedom of speech and objectivity of mass media - Russian media reports all possible scenarios, blames Putin, Ukraine, rebels, but UK press is all focused on blaming Russia. Where's the alternative? UK media is free to blame Russia? Remember that Russian gay propaganda ban? So much noise, and at the same time Saudi Arabia executes gay people and there's no USA/UK campaign against it.
- Lasker 12y ago
  Show me just one blame for Putin from Russian mainstream media. Or someone calling separatists a 'rebels'. They prefer to hide them under credible-sounded 'militia', you'll have to knew it if you're watching kremlin TV.

egao1980 12y ago

This is one of the typical rants by Russian immigrant who enjoyed top quality free education in USSR/Russia which made his success possible (+ no student loans), left during turmoil of 1990-2000s and still judging Russia on that bad memories basis. Article is full of clichés and gives general FOX news feel while reading. I lived in Moscow in 2011 and I'm part of that creative class he mentions and no one in my social network was supporting the protests. I doesn't mean that we are happy with all that happens - we just believe in slow and steady hard work towards better Russia and progress so far proves that it's working. Stop blaming Russia for everything - you're not USA State Department! :)

x4m 12y ago
Confirm that. I'm from Yekaterinburg, and Max rant seems to me just exagerated imagination of someone who haven't been here for decade.
- xor-ed-wolf 12y ago
  It's easy to understand the author's hidden sentiment that Russia is very ineffective state currently and depends too much on natural resources export and enforcement. But what bothers me most is that all of those former Russian immigrants sit in their comfortable chairs somewhere in Nebraska and yapping endlessly while not giving a sparrow's effort to research the actual situation and suggest anything to improve it. Instead they spread xenophobia and popularize knee-jerk reactions to events. I.e. they're just hatred-filled idiots who waste our time on reading them.
avmich 12y ago
Max article seems spot on. The blame is on Russian brand - which is hijacked by current Russia power structure, not on the Russian people per se, even though they share the responsibility for that kind of government. Cliches here, unfortunately, are rooted in realities - it's sad, but compare Russia with a failed state is probably not too much of an exaggeration. The fact that US has its own corruption does little justification to - much bigger, in my opinion - problems in Russia.
pas 12y ago

terranstyler 12y ago

I have quite a few problems with Western media stating that it's Putin's fault. - There is a lack of motive (seriously why would he?) - There is a lack of identity (if it were the Separatists, are they really controlled by Putin to that degree?) - The murder weapon happens to also be in the hand of the Ukrainian army (19 systems, 3 of them stationed in the range of the crash site) [2] - The Ukrainian air control obviously let the flight deviate quite a few kilometers of the "usual route" which goes south of Donetsk. [1] - The lack of prosecution in the case of Maidan snipers (and evidence against the Ukrainian gov't as being behind it) and the Odessa fire. I am not saying who it was or who it wasn't. I just state that I seriously doubt anyone who claims to know it right now. [1] https://twitter.com/VagelisKarmiros/status/489926167731142656/photo/1 https://twitter.com/VagelisKarmiros/status/48992616773114265... [2] http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/us-ukraine-crisis-airplane-buk-idUSKBN0FN03H20140718 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/us-ukraine-crisis-... 2nd paragraph

epsylon 12y ago
> lack of motive It was most likely a mistake. > There is a lack of identity (if it were the Separatists, are they really controlled by Putin to that degree?) Top members of the rebels group, including the leader, are Russian citizens and former members of the FSB. http://20committee.com/2014/07/19/donetsk-rebels-and-russian-intelligence/ http://20committee.com/2014/07/19/donetsk-rebels-and-russian... > The murder weapon happens to also be in the hand of the Ukrainian army (19 systems, 3 of them stationed in the range of the crash site) [2] If the Ukrainians were responsible, why are the rebels trying to cover up all the traces and why are they interfering with the international investigation? (Also, the source you quote is from Russian media, which are inherently biased, much more so than the multiple other sources whose evidence points towards Russia-backed rebels)
- terranstyler 12y ago
  I can certainly not say you're view is wrong and I didn't know of the group membership (thanks for that). Still, my 2ct Motive: The motive "mistake" is a motive that works for both sides. Identity: The membership in the groups "Russian" and "former FSB" is at most an indication. "All former FSB members that are Russian shoot down passenger air planes" holds as much as "All Germans kill jews" and "All jews kill Palestinians" Murder weapon: The thing is, I assume Western media is as biased as Russian media. The very fact they rarely even consider Ukrainian govt participation (as they should also with the Maidan sniper shootings) makes me wonder what side I should trust less. This view is partially based on the WMD allegations in Iraq and the use of chemical weapons by Assad, both of which can be considered "false flags". Re Assad, see http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/new-study-refines-view-of-sarin-attack-in-syria.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/new-study...

timurtamerlan 12y ago

Complete and total bullshit, based on US propaganda against Russia. I live in Russia and build my second IT business here. Most of my friends are entrepreneurs from Moscow and other cities. Of course there is corruption, autocracy and alcoholism. It is there for several hundreds of years, and we have to deal with that. But situation is actually getting better with time. You can't change loves of millions of people in an instant. Propaganda is an interesting point. In fact, I think it is not strong enough to counter the massive western information war against Russia. I read BBC and NY times regularly, and constantly notice biased and one-sided view. I think that the author fall victim to the NY Times style propaganda articles about the evil Putin, connected it with his experience and decided to support it. I don'think it is a objective point of view and it does not describe reality.

xor-ed-wolf 12y ago
It's confirmation bias at work. People often can't control their "reptilian brain" effectively. Having some superfluous idea they only find confirmations to it all around all worse if they are emotionally unstable at the moment.

gpvos 12y ago

> If Kiev government survives, it will fairly quickly unlock economic benefits of non-mafia, free economy. ...maybe. The rest of the Ukrainian political elite is also fairly corrupt, actually. So I expect it to take a decade at the very least. See, for example, Romania and Bulgaria.

CmonDev 12y ago

"Modern Russia is not a weaker version of Soviet Union “empire of evil.” This capability is, thankfully, long gone." - empire of evil is still alive and well, after defeating the Soviet Union and is still seeking for new proper enemies (will it be you, China?).

DominikR 12y ago

This is one of the most racist articles I've read in a long time. But it's the US enemy, so I guess it's okay to write: "The population at large is, statistically speaking, not very bright. Many are deranged from overuse of alcohol or drugs." You could easily replace the word "Russian" with the N-word and post this article on some white power blog.

un1x0nly 12y ago
And this was written by a Russian.

lordmax 12y ago

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/19/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-victims.html?smid=tw-nytimes&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/19/world/europe/m...