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I'm particularly interested in how people receive this piece here, since it directly contradicts many of the goals put forth by YC and SV: * work really hard s

I'm particularly interested in how people receive this piece here, since it directly contradicts many of the goals put forth by YC and SV: * work really hard so you can cash out (greed) * build influence however you can (fame) * ...ultimately, become somebody so you can fill that hole The poor motives (which I've parenthesized) probably account for much of the fact that the New Boss is no different than the Old Boss that came before. Think about the love of cultural homogeny, or working your ass off (being exploited), or worship of youth, or proving yourself to capital (whether by OSS, influence, or profitable side projects).

ealexhudson 12y ago
Those goals aren't really personal ones though. If you want to build a successful startup, you pretty much have to work very hard, network, build influence etc. - I doubt YC/SV promotes this as a particular road to self-happiness though, and in that sense it's not that contradictory. If your primary goal is happiness (both maximisation of, and minimisation of unhappiness), I would lay a fair bet that a start-up is one of the most unlikely to succeed, even in the long term.
dasil003 12y ago
I don't have a problem with seeking wealth or fame, but I think the article gives a pretty clear and cogent warning that if you think it will bring you happiness once achieved then you are sorely mistaken. For me, startups are all about having control and building something with my own two hands. Of course I want to achieve success in that, but I don't see that as an end. Getting the payout is about being able to fund whatever I want to do next (even if it's not a big money winner), and getting "famous" for me is just about meeting interesting people to work with and growing in my craft.
lsc 12y ago
>* work really hard so you can cash out (greed) Were you born so rich that you can spend all day hanging out with your friends, without worrying about money? Most of us were not. Many people here (myself included) claim that they are working really hard so that they can get enough money to be able to do whatever they want for the rest of their lives. For me, at least, the idea of working really hard for a short period of time is way more appealing than some 9-5 job where I show up every day for the rest of my life, regardless of how hard (or not) that I am expected to work. You aren't getting around the fact that you need money; until you solve the problem of food, housing and medical care for the rest of your life, earning money is going to be a problem that will take time away from finding whatever it is that makes you happy. Even if working makes you happy, having enough money that you don't need to work gives you a huge amount of leverage and freedom that will allow you to turn down work that isn't conducive to your happiness. pg, actually, has talked a whole lot about this, and about how maybe we should try to change things so that founders can take out more money early on because of this. ref: http://paulgraham.com/vcsqueeze.html http://paulgraham.com/vcsqueeze.html "My second suggestion will seem shocking to VCs: let founders cash out partially in the Series A round. At the moment, when VCs invest in a startup, all the stock they get is newly issued and all the money goes to the company. They could buy some stock directly from the founders as well. ... In fact, letting the founders sell a little stock early would generally be better for the company, because it would cause the founders' attitudes toward risk to be aligned with the VCs'. As things currently work, their attitudes toward risk tend to be diametrically opposed: the founders, who have nothing, would prefer a 100% chance of $1 million to a 20% chance of $10 million, while the VCs can afford to be "rational" and prefer the latter."
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  On the other hand, you could find a sort of work you enjoy, rather than treating it as something be endured in exchange for money.
  - lsc 12y ago
    >On the other hand, you could find a sort of work you enjoy, rather than treating it as something be endured in exchange for money. I think that having enough money that you can choose a job based on joy rather than monetary remuneration helps a lot with that. Having money also makes it a lot easier and less scary to leave jobs when the working environment turns bad.
    - thehal84 12y ago
      Why not both. If your in tech and enjoy it you can do it.
      - lsc 12y ago
        >Why not both. If your in tech and enjoy it you can do it. Clearly, that is the goal. If you are claiming that having a safety net to fall back on doesn't put you in a better position to chose work you enjoy (or rather, avoid work you find unpleasant) - I don't think you are being honest.
      - lsc 12y ago
        >Why not both. If your in tech and enjoy it you can do it. Let us go in to this further. Yes, most of the technical people I know have pretty good working conditions. However. Most of the technical people I know work for companies that either make weapons or sell advertising. The vast majority of the available high-paying technical jobs actively contribute to making the world a worse place. Now, I am not claiming to have clean hands either; I'm not trying to shame anyone else. I'm just saying that most of us would feel better if, you know, we could move away from killing people and/or making them spend money on garbage they don't need, and on to creating something that actually improves humanity. The thing is, having a positive impact is difficult on it's own. When you've got rent to pay, the easy job solving interesting problems that ultimately make banzi buddy slightly more effective starts looking pretty good.
sliverstorm 12y ago
Different people are motivated to do the same things for different reasons. * work really hard so you can cash out * work really hard so you can build something really cool Same method, different goals. SV attracts both types, though many people I know believe the balance has strongly shifted from the latter to the former. It certainly does seem like the discussion about post-exit has shifted from "How to found another, even better startup" (e.g. Elon Musk) to "How to retire at 23".
deleted 12y ago
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hkmurakami 12y ago
I am doing a startup because it's the only way I could see myself working mostly with the kind of people I like, respect, and admire, and work for (e.g. customers) cut from the same cloth (developers). When I promised myself that I would never subject myself to corporate political cutthroat contentious BS ever again, this was what I was left with. It's definitely not monetarily optimal for me.
paul 12y ago
Those certainly aren't my goals, nor the path that I have followed or advised for others. For me, and for the most successful founders that I've known, creation is primarily an intrinsic activity.
- zt 12y ago
  Ya, can't underline this sentiment enough. I think that making money or fame have to be incidental goals to the things you care about.
- psweber 12y ago
  Do you think that extrinsic, material goals get in the way of the intrinsic goal of creation? (I do)
baddox 12y ago
"Work really hard so you can cash out" is just a special case of foregoing imminent sensory pleasure for greater pleasure in the future. You can certainly argue that VCs push for too much of that, but the general idea certainly shouldn't be condemned. It's the reason we save part of our paycheck, or pass on the donut, or get shots when we need medicine.
elwell 12y ago
If I work hard, it's most often because I enjoy my work; not as a means to an end.

ealexhudson 12y ago

Those goals aren't really personal ones though. If you want to build a successful startup, you pretty much have to work very hard, network, build influence etc. - I doubt YC/SV promotes this as a particular road to self-happiness though, and in that sense it's not that contradictory. If your primary goal is happiness (both maximisation of, and minimisation of unhappiness), I would lay a fair bet that a start-up is one of the most unlikely to succeed, even in the long term.

dasil003 12y ago

I don't have a problem with seeking wealth or fame, but I think the article gives a pretty clear and cogent warning that if you think it will bring you happiness once achieved then you are sorely mistaken. For me, startups are all about having control and building something with my own two hands. Of course I want to achieve success in that, but I don't see that as an end. Getting the payout is about being able to fund whatever I want to do next (even if it's not a big money winner), and getting "famous" for me is just about meeting interesting people to work with and growing in my craft.

lsc 12y ago

>* work really hard so you can cash out (greed) Were you born so rich that you can spend all day hanging out with your friends, without worrying about money? Most of us were not. Many people here (myself included) claim that they are working really hard so that they can get enough money to be able to do whatever they want for the rest of their lives. For me, at least, the idea of working really hard for a short period of time is way more appealing than some 9-5 job where I show up every day for the rest of my life, regardless of how hard (or not) that I am expected to work. You aren't getting around the fact that you need money; until you solve the problem of food, housing and medical care for the rest of your life, earning money is going to be a problem that will take time away from finding whatever it is that makes you happy. Even if working makes you happy, having enough money that you don't need to work gives you a huge amount of leverage and freedom that will allow you to turn down work that isn't conducive to your happiness. pg, actually, has talked a whole lot about this, and about how maybe we should try to change things so that founders can take out more money early on because of this. ref: http://paulgraham.com/vcsqueeze.html http://paulgraham.com/vcsqueeze.html "My second suggestion will seem shocking to VCs: let founders cash out partially in the Series A round. At the moment, when VCs invest in a startup, all the stock they get is newly issued and all the money goes to the company. They could buy some stock directly from the founders as well. ... In fact, letting the founders sell a little stock early would generally be better for the company, because it would cause the founders' attitudes toward risk to be aligned with the VCs'. As things currently work, their attitudes toward risk tend to be diametrically opposed: the founders, who have nothing, would prefer a 100% chance of $1 million to a 20% chance of $10 million, while the VCs can afford to be "rational" and prefer the latter."

anigbrowl 12y ago
On the other hand, you could find a sort of work you enjoy, rather than treating it as something be endured in exchange for money.
- lsc 12y ago
  >On the other hand, you could find a sort of work you enjoy, rather than treating it as something be endured in exchange for money. I think that having enough money that you can choose a job based on joy rather than monetary remuneration helps a lot with that. Having money also makes it a lot easier and less scary to leave jobs when the working environment turns bad.
  - thehal84 12y ago
    Why not both. If your in tech and enjoy it you can do it.
    - lsc 12y ago
      >Why not both. If your in tech and enjoy it you can do it. Clearly, that is the goal. If you are claiming that having a safety net to fall back on doesn't put you in a better position to chose work you enjoy (or rather, avoid work you find unpleasant) - I don't think you are being honest.
    - lsc 12y ago
      >Why not both. If your in tech and enjoy it you can do it. Let us go in to this further. Yes, most of the technical people I know have pretty good working conditions. However. Most of the technical people I know work for companies that either make weapons or sell advertising. The vast majority of the available high-paying technical jobs actively contribute to making the world a worse place. Now, I am not claiming to have clean hands either; I'm not trying to shame anyone else. I'm just saying that most of us would feel better if, you know, we could move away from killing people and/or making them spend money on garbage they don't need, and on to creating something that actually improves humanity. The thing is, having a positive impact is difficult on it's own. When you've got rent to pay, the easy job solving interesting problems that ultimately make banzi buddy slightly more effective starts looking pretty good.

sliverstorm 12y ago

Different people are motivated to do the same things for different reasons. * work really hard so you can cash out * work really hard so you can build something really cool Same method, different goals. SV attracts both types, though many people I know believe the balance has strongly shifted from the latter to the former. It certainly does seem like the discussion about post-exit has shifted from "How to found another, even better startup" (e.g. Elon Musk) to "How to retire at 23".

deleted 12y ago

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deleted 12y ago

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hkmurakami 12y ago

I am doing a startup because it's the only way I could see myself working mostly with the kind of people I like, respect, and admire, and work for (e.g. customers) cut from the same cloth (developers). When I promised myself that I would never subject myself to corporate political cutthroat contentious BS ever again, this was what I was left with. It's definitely not monetarily optimal for me.

paul 12y ago

Those certainly aren't my goals, nor the path that I have followed or advised for others. For me, and for the most successful founders that I've known, creation is primarily an intrinsic activity.

zt 12y ago
Ya, can't underline this sentiment enough. I think that making money or fame have to be incidental goals to the things you care about.
psweber 12y ago
Do you think that extrinsic, material goals get in the way of the intrinsic goal of creation? (I do)

baddox 12y ago

"Work really hard so you can cash out" is just a special case of foregoing imminent sensory pleasure for greater pleasure in the future. You can certainly argue that VCs push for too much of that, but the general idea certainly shouldn't be condemned. It's the reason we save part of our paycheck, or pass on the donut, or get shots when we need medicine.

elwell 12y ago

If I work hard, it's most often because I enjoy my work; not as a means to an end.