4 ms·

Agree with the downward pressure point. Personally, i think its a good thing. American companies (including start-ups) now have a larger pool of talent to hire

Agree with the downward pressure point. Personally, i think its a good thing. American companies (including start-ups) now have a larger pool of talent to hire from without paying Wall street salaries. However, I disagree that H1Bs are somehow cheaper. I was paid the same wage as my American counter-parts when I was at AMZN.

pandaman 12y ago
I am curious how do you know that. The H1B's wage is public record but what about your American counter-parts? The whole "H1Bs are getting the same salary" is very popular but I have not seen it supported by anything. It also seems contradictory to common sense since H1B's have the lowest bargaining power of all possible workers. How can they manage to negotiate salaries on the same level as Americans? PS. I had been on H1B too. My salary doubled in about 2 years after getting GC (I had to stay a bit more than .5 year with the company that made my GC).
- curiousDog 12y ago
  Where did you work? I can't speak for the body shopping places. In my case, I was hired straight out of college and I compared offers with a few American friends. Also, I had a few close American Frieds I trust.
  - pandaman 12y ago
    I worked for big American public companies, definitely not the body shops. Though, I was already senior when I've got my H1B. I imagine the only leverage the fresh grads have is choosing another company that pays more. So all the grads that joined together with you are getting the same entry-level pay by the way they have been selected (people getting more went elsewhere).
- bodyfour 12y ago
  The non-H1B salaries aren't public, but they do get audited. Employers need to be able to demonstrate that they're not paying H1Bs less, or there is hell to pay. These audits aren't rare either -- by the time you're large enough to have decent number of H1Bs they're practically routine. Large companies have a team of people just focusing on H1B compliance. As you discovered, there is a hidden wage pressure anyway. Over your career, it's your mobility that helps drive your wages up: either because you leave for greener fields, or just because you can. While you're on a H1B your mobility is so limited which can put your career in low gear until you get your GC. If your on lame project or a cheap company you just have to put up with it. The dumb thing is that the solution is absurdly simple: just allow H1Bs to transfer sponsorship with zero penalty. If that means that they work for 5 different firms before they get the GC, so be it. Labor market dynamism is a good thing, embrace it. You also could scrap the whole auditing process; if a company starts underpaying their H1B's the problem would sort itself out very quickly as they start getting poached by the competitor down the road.
  - pandaman 12y ago
    >Employers need to be able to demonstrate that they're not paying H1Bs less, or there is hell to pay Any source for this? I have never heard of such requirements (as well, as often cited need to prove that no citizens available for each H1B position). All you need is to pay above the prevailing wage. Which is ridiculously low anyways. >The dumb thing is that the solution is absurdly simple: just allow H1Bs to transfer sponsorship with zero penalty. What is preventing you from transferring H1B now? I had no penalties transferring my H1B twice. The mobility problem with H1B is not the transfer per se. It's the fact that to do this the company need to have immigration lawyers and have the paperwork in order (e.g. one company that wanted to hire me did not have their tax returns). So the number of the companies you cold transfer is limited. Another issue is that H1B has maximum term of 6 years, which can only be extended if there is an active AOS process (green card). Somebody with 4 years on H1B is not a very attractive hire for a company that wants more commitment from their workers.
    - bodyfour 12y ago
      I can't claim your experience since I've never been on your side of the H1B process. I've also been out of people-management for a few years. I can say that when I was in that position it was drilled into me that you need to make sure H1's get equal pay. Just googling a bit now about H1B audits I found this: http://www.raminenilaw.com/h-1b-wage-and-hour-audits-dol-audits http://www.raminenilaw.com/h-1b-wage-and-hour-audits-dol-aud... They mention that the auditors can demand 3 years of wage data for both H1B and non-H1B's in the same employment classification. Further, see http://www.greencardapply.com/h1b/h1b_pwages.htm#sthash.DNRimWb4.dpbs http://www.greencardapply.com/h1b/h1b_pwages.htm#sthash.DNRi... "in certain programs, such as H-1B (temporary specialty occupations), the employer is required to pay the prevailing wage or the actual wage paid by the employer to workers with similar skills and qualifications, whichever is higher" I'm sure there are places that skate as close to the line as they can and do try to save money on H1Bs. However, the law is set up to avoid this and audits are much more frequent than a decade ago. > Another issue is that H1B has maximum term of 6 years My understanding -- and correct me if I'm wrong about this -- is that transferring early on isn't a big problem. If your GC isn't far along anyway then a job switch can't cause much of a delay. However, if your GC seems just around the corner (a limbo that can take years to get through) you're unlikely to risk moving jobs and throwing a wrench into the works. I can understand that the H1B process would want an employer to demonstrate that they're not bringing someone over to flood an already over-supplied local labor market. However, once an immigrant's first employer does that I don't see any reason to restrict them further. As far as I'm concerned, they've earned their visa and they should feel free to work anywhere they like. The entire concept of a human being having to be "sponsored" by a company is distasteful. Further, what possible reason could there be for a 6 year limit? If they were suitable for employment in 2008, they should still be in 2014 given that they have more experience. It's insane that we'd even threaten sending them away. It would be simpler to just start the GC process automatically with their H1B.
jquery 12y ago
Agree with both points. H1Bs get paid the same as citizens yet still have downward pressure on wages. Wall street salaries are never going to happen. Look at computer science enrollment by American students. Surprise, people respond to incentives. Turns out Americans are willing to program.
- curiousDog 12y ago
  Definitely, I made that comment based on past observations. If enrollment is up, I agree, Americans should be given first preference.
walshemj 12y ago
Why do you think that wage deflation is a good thing for the workers and the society they live and work in? Look at the damage that deflation did to japans economy.

pandaman 12y ago

I am curious how do you know that. The H1B's wage is public record but what about your American counter-parts? The whole "H1Bs are getting the same salary" is very popular but I have not seen it supported by anything. It also seems contradictory to common sense since H1B's have the lowest bargaining power of all possible workers. How can they manage to negotiate salaries on the same level as Americans? PS. I had been on H1B too. My salary doubled in about 2 years after getting GC (I had to stay a bit more than .5 year with the company that made my GC).

curiousDog 12y ago
Where did you work? I can't speak for the body shopping places. In my case, I was hired straight out of college and I compared offers with a few American friends. Also, I had a few close American Frieds I trust.
- pandaman 12y ago
  I worked for big American public companies, definitely not the body shops. Though, I was already senior when I've got my H1B. I imagine the only leverage the fresh grads have is choosing another company that pays more. So all the grads that joined together with you are getting the same entry-level pay by the way they have been selected (people getting more went elsewhere).
bodyfour 12y ago
The non-H1B salaries aren't public, but they do get audited. Employers need to be able to demonstrate that they're not paying H1Bs less, or there is hell to pay. These audits aren't rare either -- by the time you're large enough to have decent number of H1Bs they're practically routine. Large companies have a team of people just focusing on H1B compliance. As you discovered, there is a hidden wage pressure anyway. Over your career, it's your mobility that helps drive your wages up: either because you leave for greener fields, or just because you can. While you're on a H1B your mobility is so limited which can put your career in low gear until you get your GC. If your on lame project or a cheap company you just have to put up with it. The dumb thing is that the solution is absurdly simple: just allow H1Bs to transfer sponsorship with zero penalty. If that means that they work for 5 different firms before they get the GC, so be it. Labor market dynamism is a good thing, embrace it. You also could scrap the whole auditing process; if a company starts underpaying their H1B's the problem would sort itself out very quickly as they start getting poached by the competitor down the road.
- pandaman 12y ago
  >Employers need to be able to demonstrate that they're not paying H1Bs less, or there is hell to pay Any source for this? I have never heard of such requirements (as well, as often cited need to prove that no citizens available for each H1B position). All you need is to pay above the prevailing wage. Which is ridiculously low anyways. >The dumb thing is that the solution is absurdly simple: just allow H1Bs to transfer sponsorship with zero penalty. What is preventing you from transferring H1B now? I had no penalties transferring my H1B twice. The mobility problem with H1B is not the transfer per se. It's the fact that to do this the company need to have immigration lawyers and have the paperwork in order (e.g. one company that wanted to hire me did not have their tax returns). So the number of the companies you cold transfer is limited. Another issue is that H1B has maximum term of 6 years, which can only be extended if there is an active AOS process (green card). Somebody with 4 years on H1B is not a very attractive hire for a company that wants more commitment from their workers.
  - bodyfour 12y ago
    I can't claim your experience since I've never been on your side of the H1B process. I've also been out of people-management for a few years. I can say that when I was in that position it was drilled into me that you need to make sure H1's get equal pay. Just googling a bit now about H1B audits I found this: http://www.raminenilaw.com/h-1b-wage-and-hour-audits-dol-audits http://www.raminenilaw.com/h-1b-wage-and-hour-audits-dol-aud... They mention that the auditors can demand 3 years of wage data for both H1B and non-H1B's in the same employment classification. Further, see http://www.greencardapply.com/h1b/h1b_pwages.htm#sthash.DNRimWb4.dpbs http://www.greencardapply.com/h1b/h1b_pwages.htm#sthash.DNRi... "in certain programs, such as H-1B (temporary specialty occupations), the employer is required to pay the prevailing wage or the actual wage paid by the employer to workers with similar skills and qualifications, whichever is higher" I'm sure there are places that skate as close to the line as they can and do try to save money on H1Bs. However, the law is set up to avoid this and audits are much more frequent than a decade ago. > Another issue is that H1B has maximum term of 6 years My understanding -- and correct me if I'm wrong about this -- is that transferring early on isn't a big problem. If your GC isn't far along anyway then a job switch can't cause much of a delay. However, if your GC seems just around the corner (a limbo that can take years to get through) you're unlikely to risk moving jobs and throwing a wrench into the works. I can understand that the H1B process would want an employer to demonstrate that they're not bringing someone over to flood an already over-supplied local labor market. However, once an immigrant's first employer does that I don't see any reason to restrict them further. As far as I'm concerned, they've earned their visa and they should feel free to work anywhere they like. The entire concept of a human being having to be "sponsored" by a company is distasteful. Further, what possible reason could there be for a 6 year limit? If they were suitable for employment in 2008, they should still be in 2014 given that they have more experience. It's insane that we'd even threaten sending them away. It would be simpler to just start the GC process automatically with their H1B.

jquery 12y ago

Agree with both points. H1Bs get paid the same as citizens yet still have downward pressure on wages. Wall street salaries are never going to happen. Look at computer science enrollment by American students. Surprise, people respond to incentives. Turns out Americans are willing to program.

curiousDog 12y ago
Definitely, I made that comment based on past observations. If enrollment is up, I agree, Americans should be given first preference.

walshemj 12y ago

Why do you think that wage deflation is a good thing for the workers and the society they live and work in? Look at the damage that deflation did to japans economy.