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I simply don't like the fact that someone can change a link that I submitted to something else. Moderators have the right to kill a story or ban a user for vali

by karterk 12y ago

I simply don't like the fact that someone can change a link that I submitted to something else. Moderators have the right to kill a story or ban a user for valid reasons, but changing a link to point to another completely different article is just being pedantic and definitely crosses the line. We might as well then just post topics, and let the mods choose the best story for that topic.

benjamincburns 12y ago
I agree that mods changing submissions is a little like putting words in the original submitter's mouth, but if the practice is well known I don't think there's much harm in it. Like I hinted at in the other thread, and as dang seems to confirm, it's an issue of purism vs pragmatism.
- S4M 12y ago
  Then there should be a way to say: <a href={{new_link}}>new title</a> [changed from <a href={{old_link}}>old title</a>]
- mfisher87 12y ago
  I don't think the practice is well known. I've been on HN for a year or something, and have seen reference to the practice in comments a maximum of 5 times. And I think I tend to read pretty deeply.
  - deft 12y ago
    Since Dang has taken over as the main moderator and been more public about it, he's announced doing it more times than that.
peteretep 12y ago
> I simply don't like the fact that someone can change a > link that I submitted to something else http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_voting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_voting
- phaemon 12y ago
  Nothing would ever be changed for the better if people simply walked away from problems, rather than discussing them in an attempt to find a solution.
  - peteretep 12y ago
    Your perspective is wrong. The important thing is not that HN gets "better" according to your preferences (which appear to differ from those of the moderators), but that you have a community that more suits your preferences. In a similar vein, you can complain as much as you like that company x's smartphone doesn't have the features you think are important, or, better, you can buy company y's smartphone that does.
- levosmetalo 12y ago
  so, instead of trying to make hn better, you suggest that whoever does not agree with something here should just silently walk away? if everyone acted like that what a happy society we would have been living in.
  - Killswitch 12y ago
    Make our own HN! Quick someone register nothn.io!
  - Pacabel 12y ago
    Let's be honest, this website isn't a democracy or a republic or anything like that, even if there is "voting" on submissions and comments. Average users really have no say while they're here. There's no real ability to control or even influence how this site is operated. Leaving, or choosing not to actively participate any longer, probably does have the biggest impact of all of the options available to a user. Discussion forums need participants, and participants leaving over time can have a huge impact. Slashdot is a good example of this. Various site owners/operators started changing things in ways that users did not like. Many users spoke out, but they were ignored. In many cases, they were subjected to downmodding, especially those who spoke out against bad UI changes or the recent beta site. Seeing that discussing the problems had no impact on the situation, they left. Now Slashdot is a wasteland compared to what it once was, a decade or so ago. The decline in participation may be gradual, but it's very real, and its impact is significant.
hnha 12y ago
Do people pay attention to who submits items? I never do. Maybe the display of the submitter could be removed without any loss.
- clarky07 12y ago
  Yes they do. Some people can get to front page at will. Now, whether that's good or not is a different discussion, but people trust their judgement so they get more weight.
- mbrutsch 12y ago
  > Do people pay attention to who submits items? Would we be having this conversation if they didn't?
  - gravedave 12y ago
    I think he primarily referred to other readers, this topic was posted by a submitter.
- chrisBob 12y ago
  I don't usually pay any attention to who submitted something, and one of the biggest issues I see with HN is the imbalance in points between someone who submits an article and someone who has valuable input in the discussion. Half of my karma is from 2 submissions but I think a good comment is much more valuable that being the first person to submit a link.
SamReidHughes 12y ago
What you fail to articulate is how anybody benefits from seeing the old URL.
- Pacabel 12y ago
  It's a problem when there is discussion about a submission, then the URL is changed to a somewhat different article, and the existing discussion no longer makes as much sense. Ripping away the original context unexpectedly is the problem. So making the original context more accessible is one good solution to this problem.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    I've seen that happen, and you'll never believe what happens next: The people on the thread, being adults, write a couple sentences about how the story there were commenting on used to say something else. For many of us, this infinitesimal inconvenience is more than offset by the improved experience of not clicking through blogspam to get to the right sources. Nine times out of ten, when this happens, the original submission is awful compared to the one we end up with.

by karterk 12y ago

benjamincburns 12y ago

I agree that mods changing submissions is a little like putting words in the original submitter's mouth, but if the practice is well known I don't think there's much harm in it. Like I hinted at in the other thread, and as dang seems to confirm, it's an issue of purism vs pragmatism.

S4M 12y ago
Then there should be a way to say: <a href={{new_link}}>new title</a> [changed from <a href={{old_link}}>old title</a>]
mfisher87 12y ago
I don't think the practice is well known. I've been on HN for a year or something, and have seen reference to the practice in comments a maximum of 5 times. And I think I tend to read pretty deeply.
- deft 12y ago
  Since Dang has taken over as the main moderator and been more public about it, he's announced doing it more times than that.

peteretep 12y ago

> I simply don't like the fact that someone can change a > link that I submitted to something else http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_voting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_voting

phaemon 12y ago
Nothing would ever be changed for the better if people simply walked away from problems, rather than discussing them in an attempt to find a solution.
- peteretep 12y ago
  Your perspective is wrong. The important thing is not that HN gets "better" according to your preferences (which appear to differ from those of the moderators), but that you have a community that more suits your preferences. In a similar vein, you can complain as much as you like that company x's smartphone doesn't have the features you think are important, or, better, you can buy company y's smartphone that does.
levosmetalo 12y ago
so, instead of trying to make hn better, you suggest that whoever does not agree with something here should just silently walk away? if everyone acted like that what a happy society we would have been living in.
- Killswitch 12y ago
  Make our own HN! Quick someone register nothn.io!
- Pacabel 12y ago
  Let's be honest, this website isn't a democracy or a republic or anything like that, even if there is "voting" on submissions and comments. Average users really have no say while they're here. There's no real ability to control or even influence how this site is operated. Leaving, or choosing not to actively participate any longer, probably does have the biggest impact of all of the options available to a user. Discussion forums need participants, and participants leaving over time can have a huge impact. Slashdot is a good example of this. Various site owners/operators started changing things in ways that users did not like. Many users spoke out, but they were ignored. In many cases, they were subjected to downmodding, especially those who spoke out against bad UI changes or the recent beta site. Seeing that discussing the problems had no impact on the situation, they left. Now Slashdot is a wasteland compared to what it once was, a decade or so ago. The decline in participation may be gradual, but it's very real, and its impact is significant.

hnha 12y ago

Do people pay attention to who submits items? I never do. Maybe the display of the submitter could be removed without any loss.

clarky07 12y ago
Yes they do. Some people can get to front page at will. Now, whether that's good or not is a different discussion, but people trust their judgement so they get more weight.
mbrutsch 12y ago
> Do people pay attention to who submits items? Would we be having this conversation if they didn't?
- gravedave 12y ago
  I think he primarily referred to other readers, this topic was posted by a submitter.
chrisBob 12y ago
I don't usually pay any attention to who submitted something, and one of the biggest issues I see with HN is the imbalance in points between someone who submits an article and someone who has valuable input in the discussion. Half of my karma is from 2 submissions but I think a good comment is much more valuable that being the first person to submit a link.

SamReidHughes 12y ago

What you fail to articulate is how anybody benefits from seeing the old URL.

Pacabel 12y ago
It's a problem when there is discussion about a submission, then the URL is changed to a somewhat different article, and the existing discussion no longer makes as much sense. Ripping away the original context unexpectedly is the problem. So making the original context more accessible is one good solution to this problem.
- tptacek 12y ago
  I've seen that happen, and you'll never believe what happens next: The people on the thread, being adults, write a couple sentences about how the story there were commenting on used to say something else. For many of us, this infinitesimal inconvenience is more than offset by the improved experience of not clicking through blogspam to get to the right sources. Nine times out of ten, when this happens, the original submission is awful compared to the one we end up with.