4 ms·

Honestly curious, what is the alternative to PTO? I don't see why this is such a bad thing - you get X days off, you can use them for whatever reason you want -

Honestly curious, what is the alternative to PTO? I don't see why this is such a bad thing - you get X days off, you can use them for whatever reason you want - sick or vacation - as long as X is a reasonable number, what's the issue here?

joedrew 12y ago
Having people's sick days deduct from their vacation is an incentive to go to work when you're sick, jeopardizing the health (and productivity) of the team. A much better solution is vacation days and unlimited sick days, as well as generous work-from-home opportunities for days when you're under the weather but not too sick to work.
- a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
  The supposition here is that it's very unfair to impose a professional cost on getting sick. I don't see it that way. I see people getting sick because they take lousy care of themselves. They're fat and eat lousy food. Also, they make various idiotic stressful choices like having a 1hr commute, or putting a kid in some germ infested day care. People who do not make such choices rarely get sick for more than the odd few of days a year. Why should they subsidize poor choices? Not being sick a lot is a reasonable and sensible professional expectation.
  - alasdair_ 12y ago
    You are encouraging those sick people you seem to have a lot of disdain for to come in to the office when they have diseases and spread them to you.
  - chrismcb 12y ago
    Not only do you still have the few odd suck days but you might also have Kids that get sick. If you use up all your vacation time then you can't take any sick days
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    I'm not sure it's "very unfair to impose a professional cost on getting sick" but we don't have a way to measure whether people are sick other than self reporting until they are way past infectious, so you're not punishing getting sick but rather reporting that you are sick, and thus encouraging under reporting, which leads to everyone getting sick more.
T-hawk 12y ago
It's fine if that combined PTO is a healthy number like 25 days. It's sleazy if a company promises three weeks vacation trying to look generous when that three weeks is really combined vacation+sick+personal.
Spooky23 12y ago
"PTO" is an accounting ploy to avoid having to pay off leave balances. The alternative to to accrue leave. Where I work, we have vacation/sick/personal leave. There are different rules for each, and vacation time accrues and you get paid upon separation.
andsmi2 12y ago
If you have days "Specific" for being sick--that you can't take to "hang out" then you are likely to take them when you get a mild cold-- benefit to the company is you recover faster and you don't spread your germ. However if it's just "PTO" you are likely to not "Waste" your PTO on a mild cold... thus infecting everyone and making you sick and less productive for longer...
michaelochurch 12y ago
1. Companies implement those policies to inflate their vacation policies. In the negotiation phase, candidates don't ask, "do you mean 15 days of vacation, or is it that shitty thing where sick days are pooled with vacation?" 2. It gives people an incentive to come into the office sick. The result is that half the office is ill (but showing up!) all winter. It's pretty disgusting. If you're trying to build a polar vortex of disease, then implement a pooled PTO system. If you're trying to build a company, then don't. It's that simple. What are you trying to build? Here's how I would set it up: * Three weeks minimum vacation. (Investment banks have mandatory vacation and it's not a bad policy.) In tech, that wouldn't be a hard-and-set rule, but taking little vacation should be the choice that needs to be justified. Five weeks paid, anything beyond that is unpaid leave which can be taken without stigma. * Don't come in if you're sick. It happens to all of us. If you're going to lose more than 10 days per year to health issues, talk to HR about accommodation and we'll try to make something work. If it's less than 10 days (e.g. colds and flus and stomach bugs) then just stay home. * Don't worry about emergent personal issues. Let people know where you're going, then go. Come to work when you're ready to concentrate on work, not when you have nonsense hanging over your head.

joedrew 12y ago

Having people's sick days deduct from their vacation is an incentive to go to work when you're sick, jeopardizing the health (and productivity) of the team. A much better solution is vacation days and unlimited sick days, as well as generous work-from-home opportunities for days when you're under the weather but not too sick to work.

a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
The supposition here is that it's very unfair to impose a professional cost on getting sick. I don't see it that way. I see people getting sick because they take lousy care of themselves. They're fat and eat lousy food. Also, they make various idiotic stressful choices like having a 1hr commute, or putting a kid in some germ infested day care. People who do not make such choices rarely get sick for more than the odd few of days a year. Why should they subsidize poor choices? Not being sick a lot is a reasonable and sensible professional expectation.
- alasdair_ 12y ago
  You are encouraging those sick people you seem to have a lot of disdain for to come in to the office when they have diseases and spread them to you.
- chrismcb 12y ago
  Not only do you still have the few odd suck days but you might also have Kids that get sick. If you use up all your vacation time then you can't take any sick days
- dllthomas 12y ago
  I'm not sure it's "very unfair to impose a professional cost on getting sick" but we don't have a way to measure whether people are sick other than self reporting until they are way past infectious, so you're not punishing getting sick but rather reporting that you are sick, and thus encouraging under reporting, which leads to everyone getting sick more.

T-hawk 12y ago

It's fine if that combined PTO is a healthy number like 25 days. It's sleazy if a company promises three weeks vacation trying to look generous when that three weeks is really combined vacation+sick+personal.

Spooky23 12y ago

"PTO" is an accounting ploy to avoid having to pay off leave balances. The alternative to to accrue leave. Where I work, we have vacation/sick/personal leave. There are different rules for each, and vacation time accrues and you get paid upon separation.

andsmi2 12y ago

If you have days "Specific" for being sick--that you can't take to "hang out" then you are likely to take them when you get a mild cold-- benefit to the company is you recover faster and you don't spread your germ. However if it's just "PTO" you are likely to not "Waste" your PTO on a mild cold... thus infecting everyone and making you sick and less productive for longer...

michaelochurch 12y ago

1. Companies implement those policies to inflate their vacation policies. In the negotiation phase, candidates don't ask, "do you mean 15 days of vacation, or is it that shitty thing where sick days are pooled with vacation?" 2. It gives people an incentive to come into the office sick. The result is that half the office is ill (but showing up!) all winter. It's pretty disgusting. If you're trying to build a polar vortex of disease, then implement a pooled PTO system. If you're trying to build a company, then don't. It's that simple. What are you trying to build? Here's how I would set it up: * Three weeks minimum vacation. (Investment banks have mandatory vacation and it's not a bad policy.) In tech, that wouldn't be a hard-and-set rule, but taking little vacation should be the choice that needs to be justified. Five weeks paid, anything beyond that is unpaid leave which can be taken without stigma. * Don't come in if you're sick. It happens to all of us. If you're going to lose more than 10 days per year to health issues, talk to HR about accommodation and we'll try to make something work. If it's less than 10 days (e.g. colds and flus and stomach bugs) then just stay home. * Don't worry about emergent personal issues. Let people know where you're going, then go. Come to work when you're ready to concentrate on work, not when you have nonsense hanging over your head.