7 ms·

You are asking a lot of questions but it would help people to understand what you are looking for (or what you are moving away from). If you are looking for al

You are asking a lot of questions but it would help people to understand what you are looking for (or what you are moving away from). If you are looking for almost USA that is not USA, then Canada. If you are looking for a good climate outside of USA then Australia. Or France, or Italy, but then you will need to learn the language. If you are looking for low expenses, then India, Thailand, or Vietnam. If you are looking for great social stability then Northern Europe countries, but these are notoriously hard to emigrate to... etc etc (Creds: moved from Russia to Canada, travel a lot)

gregd 12y ago
I want to experience another culture and I want my family to have a similar experience. Since I have really no idea what I'd be in for, I was looking for input on what others experienced. I haven't traveled much outside of the US but am really, really attracted to Europe. I work remotely currently so stable/fast internet is pretty much my only requirement and the country has to be expat friendly.
- smoe 12y ago
  I wouldn't be to concerned about stable/fast internet. I currently work out of hostels and cafes in Medellin, Colombia. Free wlan everywhere and haven't had any more problems than back in Switzerland. And since I have a local cell phone, I can just switch to tethering if there are any. Europe has a lot of amazing cities I could imaging to stay longer, but they have very different cultures and styles of living. In my opinion it comes down to personal taste rather than any other concern (except maybe cost of living). Instead of moving all you stuff to one place it may be better to store it in your current place and just come to Europe with backpacks and travel for a bit until your family finds a place they feel like settling.
- mynegation 12y ago
  So, to recap: different culture, expat friendly, stable internet, and (I presume) safety for the family. There is a continuum with countries similar to US culture on one end and countries with very different culture on another end, but with various issues (safety, internet availability, language, etc). I would say somewhere in the middle of the spectrum are countries of Eastern Europe: they are beautiful, most of them are expat-friendly and have expat diasporas, stable internet, relatively safe. I would suggest you look at Czech Republic, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania (great internet connectivity BTW).
jarin 12y ago
I saw a lot of American expats in Chiang Mai, Thailand. It's much more laid back than Bangkok or the beach cities, and it's gorgeous up there. They seemed to be having a great time.
- hyperliner 12y ago
  Those expats are there for a different reason.
  - justizin 12y ago
    what is that?
    - omegaham 12y ago
      I think he's repeating the urban myth of American soldiers getting "black syphilis" and not being allowed home.
    - stephenr 12y ago
      sex tourism. However the number in Chiang Mai is likely minuscule to those in Pattaya, or the "poor" (and thus can't afford to live in Pattaya or Chiang Mai) in Isan (an extremely poor part of the country well known for daughters being "sold off" to foreign husbands 2x or 3x their age)
pilsetnieks 12y ago
> India, Thailand, or Vietnam Getting a work permit in SE Asia could be a major pain, or so I've heard.
- stephenr 12y ago
  I can only comment on the process in Thailand. Note this applies specifically to western (and possibly non neighbouring asian) expats. To get a work permit, you need a business visa (which requires a letter from either a Thai company or if you're lucky, a company in your own country stating why you need the visa), and a Thai company to offer you work. They have to be able to show (but not always asked to) why they need to hire you (vs a local) and they need to have 4 regular Thai employees for every foreigner they employ. The minimum wage for (western) foreigners is 50K Baht/month, compared to 9K Baht/month for locals. Graduate salary starts at around 30K Baht/month so you need to be worth it for them to even bother. A work permit is specific to a company and a location - if you change location your WP needs to be updated (possibly replaced, haven't been through that yet). If you want to change job, you will need to cancel your old on and go through the process for a new one with the new employer. I worked in Australia as a consultant/contractor (operating as a sole trader) and to carry on here, have formed a Thai company. This was only possible for me, because my wife is Thai, and thus I have a pool of trusted Thais to rely on for things like 51% ownership of the company. Americans have some other options I didn't have regarding company ownership (the rules on % of ownership are relaxed) but I still wouldn't call it "easy".
mbenjaminsmith 12y ago
I'm always surprised to see Thailand on a list of cheap places to live. I live in Bangkok in the CBD just behind the Four Seasons. While that's admittedly one of the pricier neighborhoods to live in, I've also lived in some of the "artier" lower cost neighborhoods here. Overall, this is what I've found, compared to my place of origin: 1. Rent -- 0.5 - 1.0 what you'll pay in a top-tier US city. 2. Groceries -- anything resembling what you'd get in the US will cost 1.25 - 2.00 of what you're paying in the US. 3. Cars -- 1.5 - 4.0 what you'll pay in the US. Insurance is somewhat cheaper however. Ditto maintenance. Gas is about the same. 4. Eating out -- really depends but say $30 - $200 for two people, possibly with drinks. You can eat cheaper food on the streets. You may or may not want to. 5. Electronics, watches, designer goods, etc -- significantly more than what you would pay in the US. 6. Domestic help -- if from a neighboring country very affordable, starting at $20 - $30 per day for maids and nannies. 7. Health care -- pretty incredible value here compared to the US. It would not be insane to go to a top-tier hospital without insurance here. My wife and I just had our son here. Excellent care for a fraction of US prices. In other words, anything you might save on rent you'll make up for on everything else, with the exception of healthcare and domestic help, which have very high quality vs cost.
- jbellis 12y ago
  I'm not as dogmatic as this could sound, but there's some truth to the position that if you're in Asia buying groceries resembling what you'd get in the US, you're doing it wrong. :) (Seriously, native-style meals are part of the experience, and much more budget-friendly. In many countries you could even hire a cook and still come out ahead, depending on how many family members you're buying for.)
- stephenr 12y ago
  Thailand is very cheap to live, if you don't try to live a life exactly like you lived in your western home country. I moved from Australia with my girlfriend (now wife) about 20 months ago. 1. I don’t live in Bangkok (about 75km north in Ayutthaya, the old capital), but outside the city in the other cities/large towns (excluding perhaps Pattaya and Phuket CBD which cater to (sex) tourists), renting and buying a 3+ bedroom house can be very cheap. If you want to live right in the city in a Bangkok shoebox, yes you will pay for the "privilege". 2. The only time our grocery bill is anything like it was in Australia is if we a) go to the cash-and-carry store and buy bulk things and/or b) go to one of the 'upmarket' supermarkets to get imported stuff. If you go to one of the fresh markets to get fruit and veg (and potentially meat too) it's ridiculously cheap. 3. I don't know the US car market but generally they are slightly cheaper here than Australia, however that only works if you buy locally made. ANY imported vehicle automatically has 120% import tax. 4. If you eat in a local restaurant, $30 (~1000 Baht) will generally pay the bill for dinner for about 6 people. If you go to a western-ish restaurant (i.e. western style menu items but often with a slight thai touch, or adjusted ingredients) the same amount might cover 2 people, it might go up to $45 (~1500 Baht). $200 for two people is fucking insane, unless you're eating where all the hi-so Thais go just to be seen, and show they have money. Your comment on street food tells me that you fall into the "not want to" category, and that is part of your expense problem. We regularly have street food, and I have only once had a bad experience (it didn't make me sick, I took a bite and couldn't eat it). If we get dinner from a street vendor its guaranteed we will pay less than $5 for both of us, for (generally) a meal made fresh in front of you, that is delicious. To state that $30-$200 (~1000 - ~7000 Baht) to eat out is "normal" but that "you can get cheaper food on the streets, you may or may not want to" is like saying "there are cheaper toilets than this solid gold one, you may or may not want to use them". 5. Just like your $200 dinner for two, I think you're either shopping at the "hi-so" playgrounds (aka shopping malls), or you're paying the farrang (foreigner) tax. As I learnt very quickly - if you want to live your western lifestyle, yes it will be expensive, because a lot of things you might want have to be imported and are thus * more expensive for the retailer * considered a luxury item thus worthy of higher markup * targeted at foreigners thus worthy of even higher markup

gregd 12y ago

I want to experience another culture and I want my family to have a similar experience. Since I have really no idea what I'd be in for, I was looking for input on what others experienced. I haven't traveled much outside of the US but am really, really attracted to Europe. I work remotely currently so stable/fast internet is pretty much my only requirement and the country has to be expat friendly.

smoe 12y ago
I wouldn't be to concerned about stable/fast internet. I currently work out of hostels and cafes in Medellin, Colombia. Free wlan everywhere and haven't had any more problems than back in Switzerland. And since I have a local cell phone, I can just switch to tethering if there are any. Europe has a lot of amazing cities I could imaging to stay longer, but they have very different cultures and styles of living. In my opinion it comes down to personal taste rather than any other concern (except maybe cost of living). Instead of moving all you stuff to one place it may be better to store it in your current place and just come to Europe with backpacks and travel for a bit until your family finds a place they feel like settling.
mynegation 12y ago
So, to recap: different culture, expat friendly, stable internet, and (I presume) safety for the family. There is a continuum with countries similar to US culture on one end and countries with very different culture on another end, but with various issues (safety, internet availability, language, etc). I would say somewhere in the middle of the spectrum are countries of Eastern Europe: they are beautiful, most of them are expat-friendly and have expat diasporas, stable internet, relatively safe. I would suggest you look at Czech Republic, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania (great internet connectivity BTW).

jarin 12y ago

I saw a lot of American expats in Chiang Mai, Thailand. It's much more laid back than Bangkok or the beach cities, and it's gorgeous up there. They seemed to be having a great time.

hyperliner 12y ago
Those expats are there for a different reason.
- justizin 12y ago
  what is that?
  - omegaham 12y ago
    I think he's repeating the urban myth of American soldiers getting "black syphilis" and not being allowed home.
  - stephenr 12y ago
    sex tourism. However the number in Chiang Mai is likely minuscule to those in Pattaya, or the "poor" (and thus can't afford to live in Pattaya or Chiang Mai) in Isan (an extremely poor part of the country well known for daughters being "sold off" to foreign husbands 2x or 3x their age)

pilsetnieks 12y ago

> India, Thailand, or Vietnam Getting a work permit in SE Asia could be a major pain, or so I've heard.

stephenr 12y ago
I can only comment on the process in Thailand. Note this applies specifically to western (and possibly non neighbouring asian) expats. To get a work permit, you need a business visa (which requires a letter from either a Thai company or if you're lucky, a company in your own country stating why you need the visa), and a Thai company to offer you work. They have to be able to show (but not always asked to) why they need to hire you (vs a local) and they need to have 4 regular Thai employees for every foreigner they employ. The minimum wage for (western) foreigners is 50K Baht/month, compared to 9K Baht/month for locals. Graduate salary starts at around 30K Baht/month so you need to be worth it for them to even bother. A work permit is specific to a company and a location - if you change location your WP needs to be updated (possibly replaced, haven't been through that yet). If you want to change job, you will need to cancel your old on and go through the process for a new one with the new employer. I worked in Australia as a consultant/contractor (operating as a sole trader) and to carry on here, have formed a Thai company. This was only possible for me, because my wife is Thai, and thus I have a pool of trusted Thais to rely on for things like 51% ownership of the company. Americans have some other options I didn't have regarding company ownership (the rules on % of ownership are relaxed) but I still wouldn't call it "easy".

mbenjaminsmith 12y ago

I'm always surprised to see Thailand on a list of cheap places to live. I live in Bangkok in the CBD just behind the Four Seasons. While that's admittedly one of the pricier neighborhoods to live in, I've also lived in some of the "artier" lower cost neighborhoods here. Overall, this is what I've found, compared to my place of origin: 1. Rent -- 0.5 - 1.0 what you'll pay in a top-tier US city. 2. Groceries -- anything resembling what you'd get in the US will cost 1.25 - 2.00 of what you're paying in the US. 3. Cars -- 1.5 - 4.0 what you'll pay in the US. Insurance is somewhat cheaper however. Ditto maintenance. Gas is about the same. 4. Eating out -- really depends but say $30 - $200 for two people, possibly with drinks. You can eat cheaper food on the streets. You may or may not want to. 5. Electronics, watches, designer goods, etc -- significantly more than what you would pay in the US. 6. Domestic help -- if from a neighboring country very affordable, starting at $20 - $30 per day for maids and nannies. 7. Health care -- pretty incredible value here compared to the US. It would not be insane to go to a top-tier hospital without insurance here. My wife and I just had our son here. Excellent care for a fraction of US prices. In other words, anything you might save on rent you'll make up for on everything else, with the exception of healthcare and domestic help, which have very high quality vs cost.

jbellis 12y ago
I'm not as dogmatic as this could sound, but there's some truth to the position that if you're in Asia buying groceries resembling what you'd get in the US, you're doing it wrong. :) (Seriously, native-style meals are part of the experience, and much more budget-friendly. In many countries you could even hire a cook and still come out ahead, depending on how many family members you're buying for.)
stephenr 12y ago
Thailand is very cheap to live, if you don't try to live a life exactly like you lived in your western home country. I moved from Australia with my girlfriend (now wife) about 20 months ago. 1. I don’t live in Bangkok (about 75km north in Ayutthaya, the old capital), but outside the city in the other cities/large towns (excluding perhaps Pattaya and Phuket CBD which cater to (sex) tourists), renting and buying a 3+ bedroom house can be very cheap. If you want to live right in the city in a Bangkok shoebox, yes you will pay for the "privilege". 2. The only time our grocery bill is anything like it was in Australia is if we a) go to the cash-and-carry store and buy bulk things and/or b) go to one of the 'upmarket' supermarkets to get imported stuff. If you go to one of the fresh markets to get fruit and veg (and potentially meat too) it's ridiculously cheap. 3. I don't know the US car market but generally they are slightly cheaper here than Australia, however that only works if you buy locally made. ANY imported vehicle automatically has 120% import tax. 4. If you eat in a local restaurant, $30 (~1000 Baht) will generally pay the bill for dinner for about 6 people. If you go to a western-ish restaurant (i.e. western style menu items but often with a slight thai touch, or adjusted ingredients) the same amount might cover 2 people, it might go up to $45 (~1500 Baht). $200 for two people is fucking insane, unless you're eating where all the hi-so Thais go just to be seen, and show they have money. Your comment on street food tells me that you fall into the "not want to" category, and that is part of your expense problem. We regularly have street food, and I have only once had a bad experience (it didn't make me sick, I took a bite and couldn't eat it). If we get dinner from a street vendor its guaranteed we will pay less than $5 for both of us, for (generally) a meal made fresh in front of you, that is delicious. To state that $30-$200 (~1000 - ~7000 Baht) to eat out is "normal" but that "you can get cheaper food on the streets, you may or may not want to" is like saying "there are cheaper toilets than this solid gold one, you may or may not want to use them". 5. Just like your $200 dinner for two, I think you're either shopping at the "hi-so" playgrounds (aka shopping malls), or you're paying the farrang (foreigner) tax. As I learnt very quickly - if you want to live your western lifestyle, yes it will be expensive, because a lot of things you might want have to be imported and are thus * more expensive for the retailer * considered a luxury item thus worthy of higher markup * targeted at foreigners thus worthy of even higher markup