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Agreed, every people is different. There isn't the "formula for all". I'm from Brazil and got curious about the "unlimited vacation", how it works?

NathanKP 12y ago
The startup I'm at has "unlimited vacation". Basically there is no set limit on vacation days and we can pretty much take vacation whenever we want if we just give the other people some advance notice say a week or so ahead of time. That said I have only taken a few weeks of vacation in the last few years for some reason. I should take advantage of it more.
michaelochurch 12y ago
I'm from Brazil and got curious about the "unlimited vacation", how it works? The U.S. is the only advanced economy without a vacation floor. (To join the EU, 20 days is the lower limit.) Three weeks is typical for an average job (but some companies are sleazy and pool sick time and vacation under "PTO") and two for a crap job. It's surprising how reliably you can predict the quality of a company and job based on vacation allotment. Four weeks: solid, professional, you'll be treated as an adult. Three: average, mediocre. Two: dysfunctional, run the fuck away. Subtract one week if they use that pooled bullshit ("PTO") where sick leave is deducted from vacation. It's a horrible policy, because it means people come into work sick and everyone gets sick more often, but not only is it (shockingly) legal in the US to deduct sick days from vacation, it's not all that rare. Generally, the assumption is that you should get one week off per decade (e.g. 2-3 weeks in your 20s, 3-4 in your 30s, 4-5 in your 40s) and that, if you have less than that, you're probably too old for the job you're in (you should be further along). That's not a legal requirement. It's just the cultural expectation. If you're 50 and you're still on two weeks, you haven't succeeded at life. (It's different for consultants, who get no "paid" vacation but charge a higher daily rate. They can generally take off when they want, and can make more than most salaried people working 100 days/year. If you can pull it off, that seems to be the way to go after 40.) Some startups have undefined vacation policies. This can be really good (if there's a positive culture) or really terrible (if it devolves into a race-to-the-bottom dynamic). It depends. (The one company, with more than 50 people, that I worked at with "unlimited" vacation was terrible. That's not casual, of course, and it's just one data point.) Better is to set a guideline (4 weeks minimum) but allow exceptions. In software, the more talented people (until they can become independent) solve this by working "from home" and doing a bit of working travel. Free of office distractions and interruptions, you can actually accomplish more in a 3-hour "day" than most people get done in their 8-10. The downside of WFH is that you're still expected to be available during the full 8 hours, and if people get the sense that you're getting your work done in three, then they ask why you didn't ask for more work.
- nicolethenerd 12y ago
  Honestly curious, what is the alternative to PTO? I don't see why this is such a bad thing - you get X days off, you can use them for whatever reason you want - sick or vacation - as long as X is a reasonable number, what's the issue here?
  - joedrew 12y ago
    Having people's sick days deduct from their vacation is an incentive to go to work when you're sick, jeopardizing the health (and productivity) of the team. A much better solution is vacation days and unlimited sick days, as well as generous work-from-home opportunities for days when you're under the weather but not too sick to work.
    - a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
      The supposition here is that it's very unfair to impose a professional cost on getting sick. I don't see it that way. I see people getting sick because they take lousy care of themselves. They're fat and eat lousy food. Also, they make various idiotic stressful choices like having a 1hr commute, or putting a kid in some germ infested day care. People who do not make such choices rarely get sick for more than the odd few of days a year. Why should they subsidize poor choices? Not being sick a lot is a reasonable and sensible professional expectation.
      - alasdair_ 12y ago
        You are encouraging those sick people you seem to have a lot of disdain for to come in to the office when they have diseases and spread them to you.
      - chrismcb 12y ago
        Not only do you still have the few odd suck days but you might also have Kids that get sick. If you use up all your vacation time then you can't take any sick days
      - 12y ago
bicx 12y ago
I have "unlimited vacation." Basically, there is no allotted number of days for vacation. At first, it sounds great, and for a day off now and then, it is. However, you can't just leave and spend all month at the beach. You have to justify your reason for taking off a week or two, asking yourself questions like "Have I done enough to justify a vacation? Can I take time off and not let down my team?" In contrast, getting a guaranteed number of weeks off doesn't require you to justify any time taken off. Instead, it's viewed as part of your compensation. With all that said, unlimited vacation is not that bad in a good workplace with an understanding employer and team. I work hard, and I don't feel guilty about taking time off. What's annoying is when employers hire you with the lure of "unlimited vacation" and actually plan on turning you down if you try to go above a normal amount of PTO. In that case, it's all to their advantage. When it comes down to it, be skeptical anytime an employer says things like "unlimited vacation" or "flexible hours." Unlimited vacation can mean that they just don't have official vacation days (and can deny you time off), and flexible hours can mean hours only flex one way: up. What people often don't see is that while the 40/hr work week and standard 2 - 4 weeks of vacation seem archaic and even oppressive, having time limits can also protect you as an employee. Remove those limits, and you just have to hope your employer continues to promote healthy work habits.

NathanKP 12y ago

The startup I'm at has "unlimited vacation". Basically there is no set limit on vacation days and we can pretty much take vacation whenever we want if we just give the other people some advance notice say a week or so ahead of time. That said I have only taken a few weeks of vacation in the last few years for some reason. I should take advantage of it more.

michaelochurch 12y ago

I'm from Brazil and got curious about the "unlimited vacation", how it works? The U.S. is the only advanced economy without a vacation floor. (To join the EU, 20 days is the lower limit.) Three weeks is typical for an average job (but some companies are sleazy and pool sick time and vacation under "PTO") and two for a crap job. It's surprising how reliably you can predict the quality of a company and job based on vacation allotment. Four weeks: solid, professional, you'll be treated as an adult. Three: average, mediocre. Two: dysfunctional, run the fuck away. Subtract one week if they use that pooled bullshit ("PTO") where sick leave is deducted from vacation. It's a horrible policy, because it means people come into work sick and everyone gets sick more often, but not only is it (shockingly) legal in the US to deduct sick days from vacation, it's not all that rare. Generally, the assumption is that you should get one week off per decade (e.g. 2-3 weeks in your 20s, 3-4 in your 30s, 4-5 in your 40s) and that, if you have less than that, you're probably too old for the job you're in (you should be further along). That's not a legal requirement. It's just the cultural expectation. If you're 50 and you're still on two weeks, you haven't succeeded at life. (It's different for consultants, who get no "paid" vacation but charge a higher daily rate. They can generally take off when they want, and can make more than most salaried people working 100 days/year. If you can pull it off, that seems to be the way to go after 40.) Some startups have undefined vacation policies. This can be really good (if there's a positive culture) or really terrible (if it devolves into a race-to-the-bottom dynamic). It depends. (The one company, with more than 50 people, that I worked at with "unlimited" vacation was terrible. That's not casual, of course, and it's just one data point.) Better is to set a guideline (4 weeks minimum) but allow exceptions. In software, the more talented people (until they can become independent) solve this by working "from home" and doing a bit of working travel. Free of office distractions and interruptions, you can actually accomplish more in a 3-hour "day" than most people get done in their 8-10. The downside of WFH is that you're still expected to be available during the full 8 hours, and if people get the sense that you're getting your work done in three, then they ask why you didn't ask for more work.

nicolethenerd 12y ago
Honestly curious, what is the alternative to PTO? I don't see why this is such a bad thing - you get X days off, you can use them for whatever reason you want - sick or vacation - as long as X is a reasonable number, what's the issue here?
- joedrew 12y ago
  Having people's sick days deduct from their vacation is an incentive to go to work when you're sick, jeopardizing the health (and productivity) of the team. A much better solution is vacation days and unlimited sick days, as well as generous work-from-home opportunities for days when you're under the weather but not too sick to work.
  - a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
    The supposition here is that it's very unfair to impose a professional cost on getting sick. I don't see it that way. I see people getting sick because they take lousy care of themselves. They're fat and eat lousy food. Also, they make various idiotic stressful choices like having a 1hr commute, or putting a kid in some germ infested day care. People who do not make such choices rarely get sick for more than the odd few of days a year. Why should they subsidize poor choices? Not being sick a lot is a reasonable and sensible professional expectation.
    - alasdair_ 12y ago
      You are encouraging those sick people you seem to have a lot of disdain for to come in to the office when they have diseases and spread them to you.
    - chrismcb 12y ago
      Not only do you still have the few odd suck days but you might also have Kids that get sick. If you use up all your vacation time then you can't take any sick days
    - 12y ago

bicx 12y ago

I have "unlimited vacation." Basically, there is no allotted number of days for vacation. At first, it sounds great, and for a day off now and then, it is. However, you can't just leave and spend all month at the beach. You have to justify your reason for taking off a week or two, asking yourself questions like "Have I done enough to justify a vacation? Can I take time off and not let down my team?" In contrast, getting a guaranteed number of weeks off doesn't require you to justify any time taken off. Instead, it's viewed as part of your compensation. With all that said, unlimited vacation is not that bad in a good workplace with an understanding employer and team. I work hard, and I don't feel guilty about taking time off. What's annoying is when employers hire you with the lure of "unlimited vacation" and actually plan on turning you down if you try to go above a normal amount of PTO. In that case, it's all to their advantage. When it comes down to it, be skeptical anytime an employer says things like "unlimited vacation" or "flexible hours." Unlimited vacation can mean that they just don't have official vacation days (and can deny you time off), and flexible hours can mean hours only flex one way: up. What people often don't see is that while the 40/hr work week and standard 2 - 4 weeks of vacation seem archaic and even oppressive, having time limits can also protect you as an employee. Remove those limits, and you just have to hope your employer continues to promote healthy work habits.