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Let's see if I can cover this entire comment thread in one comment. Taking a break is good for most people. It can help prevent burnout. People vary greatly i

Let's see if I can cover this entire comment thread in one comment. Taking a break is good for most people. It can help prevent burnout. People vary greatly in their ability to take vacation due to income, work and family requirements. People vary even more in what they consider to be a good vacation. Some people like a lot of activity. Some people like lying around. Some people honestly don't like taking time off work. All of these are OK as long you do what works for you. People in the United States get, on average, significantly less vacation time than their European counterparts. Some companies have unlimited vacation policies, but unless the culture is unusually positive, these policies are generally harmful in that they require all vacation to be justified in some way. In other words, there is no way to make a meaningful universal statement about vacation.

hmexx 12y ago
Amusing :)
my_username_is_ 12y ago
I'm curious if any companies have required (minimum) amounts of vacation. Taking a break seems to be a general positive for productivity, but people with unlimited vacation seem to not take it. What if you were obligated to?
- deciplex 12y ago
  Most jurisdictions require a certain number of days out of the office for people who work in finance. In Japan, it's ten consecutive business days each year. In the US I believe it's five.
- erikw 12y ago
  Required vacation time is a security best practice, especially for anyone handling money. This makes it more difficult to perpetrate fraud. It also prevents institutional knowledge from being trapped with individuals, as at least one other person must know how to perform the role of the vacationee.
  - delecti 12y ago
    Can you explain how it makes it more difficult to perpetuate fraud? I've never worked handling money, so I can't picture how that would be the case.
    - zrail 12y ago
      Say you're a bank employee who handles money. It'd be pretty easy to just slip some off the top of each stack every day and take it home. Or arrange the software to skim some into a separate account and pull that money out often enough that the balance never gets high enough to be suspicious. Both of those things, plus many more, require daily or weekly effort. If you're out of the office, something will go amiss and you'll get caught.
- oostevo 12y ago
  It's fairly commonplace in the federal government to have 'use it or lose it' leave. Only a certain amount of vacation hours can roll over from one year to the next, so those which you don't use and don't roll over are lost. While it's not mandatory to take that leave, it's a very good excuse for why you want to take several days off. See more here: http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/leave-year-beginning-and-ending-dates/ http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-adm...
- Spooky23 12y ago
  Usually internal controls require that financial people in payables/receivables take a least a week off.
- jeffasinger 12y ago
  Banks have this. In fact, the FDIC requires it. It's harder to cover up fraudulent trading if you're not there.
edpichler 12y ago
Agreed, every people is different. There isn't the "formula for all". I'm from Brazil and got curious about the "unlimited vacation", how it works?
- NathanKP 12y ago
  The startup I'm at has "unlimited vacation". Basically there is no set limit on vacation days and we can pretty much take vacation whenever we want if we just give the other people some advance notice say a week or so ahead of time. That said I have only taken a few weeks of vacation in the last few years for some reason. I should take advantage of it more.
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  I'm from Brazil and got curious about the "unlimited vacation", how it works? The U.S. is the only advanced economy without a vacation floor. (To join the EU, 20 days is the lower limit.) Three weeks is typical for an average job (but some companies are sleazy and pool sick time and vacation under "PTO") and two for a crap job. It's surprising how reliably you can predict the quality of a company and job based on vacation allotment. Four weeks: solid, professional, you'll be treated as an adult. Three: average, mediocre. Two: dysfunctional, run the fuck away. Subtract one week if they use that pooled bullshit ("PTO") where sick leave is deducted from vacation. It's a horrible policy, because it means people come into work sick and everyone gets sick more often, but not only is it (shockingly) legal in the US to deduct sick days from vacation, it's not all that rare. Generally, the assumption is that you should get one week off per decade (e.g. 2-3 weeks in your 20s, 3-4 in your 30s, 4-5 in your 40s) and that, if you have less than that, you're probably too old for the job you're in (you should be further along). That's not a legal requirement. It's just the cultural expectation. If you're 50 and you're still on two weeks, you haven't succeeded at life. (It's different for consultants, who get no "paid" vacation but charge a higher daily rate. They can generally take off when they want, and can make more than most salaried people working 100 days/year. If you can pull it off, that seems to be the way to go after 40.) Some startups have undefined vacation policies. This can be really good (if there's a positive culture) or really terrible (if it devolves into a race-to-the-bottom dynamic). It depends. (The one company, with more than 50 people, that I worked at with "unlimited" vacation was terrible. That's not casual, of course, and it's just one data point.) Better is to set a guideline (4 weeks minimum) but allow exceptions. In software, the more talented people (until they can become independent) solve this by working "from home" and doing a bit of working travel. Free of office distractions and interruptions, you can actually accomplish more in a 3-hour "day" than most people get done in their 8-10. The downside of WFH is that you're still expected to be available during the full 8 hours, and if people get the sense that you're getting your work done in three, then they ask why you didn't ask for more work.
stygiansonic 12y ago
Good points. This is sort of a corollary that "everyone is different". You wouldn't buy your shoes based on the average male/female shoe size so why would you structure something as personal as vacation based on someone else's experiences? Best way to discover what's optimal for you in such personal matters is trial-and-error. It's your life - experiment and find what makes you feel good. :)
lemming 12y ago
In other words, there is no way to make a meaningful universal statement about vacation. Except this bit: Taking a break is good for most people.
- shurcooL 12y ago
  But... but it kills your github contribution streak.
  - andrewd18 12y ago
    Quick, before you go, write two scripts and corresponding cron jobs that convert tabs to N spaces, or N spaces to tabs. Then, set them up to commit to your favorite repo on alternating days. Now you can enjoy your vacation while pissing off your fellow contributors at the same time!
    - dm2 12y ago
      Spaces to tabs please.
      - malyk 12y ago
        2 spaces 4eva!
      - jackweirdy 12y ago
        So you can convert them back again, right?
  - pgeorgi 12y ago
    Luckily github only looks at the commit date :-)
    - JoshTriplett 12y ago
      Which is quite easy to manipulate, with amusing results: https://github.com/jbranchaud/commitart https://github.com/jbranchaud/commitart
hipsterrific 12y ago
My previous job had unlimited PTO and that team sucked mega-donkey balls. It worked despite the culture, here's how: - large vacation time was scheduled around projects. The SPM gave large priority to devs over the business. Thus priorities were reduced to meet resources for that sprint (SCRUM). - We had a flexible work schedule so if you needed to be home because the guy fixing your water heater is coming at 3, we made that possible. The philosophy was that as long as you were meeting your targets, everything was peachy. - We had one guy who would occassionally go on two/three day breaks and not tell anyone - including the SPM. As a team, we just left him alone and if he can't finish his task, oh well, we didn't bail him out. - Ironically, most of us took fewer vacation days with unlimited PTO. You have the outliers who will gladly abuse it, but prior to my departure, I took a total of four weeks (20 days) of total vacation time. Most companies give that anyways. Simply put, as long as we gave a long enough notice and put things into the engineering calendar, no one gave a crap. A lot of our unlimited PTO success boils down to prioritizing resources and expectations with the business. This company is around 300 people, so not a small company by all means. We just ensured that we all gave appropriate notice. For me, my formula was 1 month advanced notice for every week I wanted to take, so three weeks off meant three months ahead.
- ritchiea 12y ago
  I don't think most companies in the US give 4 weeks PTO. Currently I am contracting but at my last full time gig standard was 1 week, I pushed at hire time and got 2. What are other people's experience with this?
  - fataliss 12y ago
    I think the US standard is more around 15 days of PTO. That's what I get here. Plus the week between Christmas and New year that is for everybody.
  - logfromblammo 12y ago
    When I started at this place, I had 10 days of vacation and about 8 sick days per year. Within the first 3 months, I had no more vacation, no more sick days, and just 15 days of PTO. Note the mathematical inequality. We were, of course, then required to use PTO days when the office was shuttered due to dangerous weather, and everyone got the flu because no one wanted to scuttle their own summer vacation plans by staying home sick in February. My experience is that American companies hate the idea that their employees might prefer to do anything at all other than to make more money for the company than it costs to pay out their benefits and wages. This is not a theoretical hate, but an actual, almost tangible hate. They are completely furious that their inefficient meat-robots continually whine about needing to eat, sleep, and eliminate wastes. Never mind wanting to actually leave the workplace. US companies emphatically do not offer 4 weeks PTO to new hires. You would be lucky to get that after 5 years of continuous employment with the same company. Your mileage, of course, may vary, especially if you are in a particularly labor-friendly job market. My personal experience, however, is that I have never been able to take a vacation longer than 9 continuous days, and those were often constrained by weekends and paid holidays, resulting in 4 days spent from PTO, and 5 days from weekends and holidays. I would be willing to put up with some of the negative aspects of having a union, if it could manage even as much as stopping my non-paycheck benefits from eroding a tiny bit every year. I have had enough.
Diederich 12y ago
I'll add one bit of colour. At the three places I have worked since 1997, specifically, the teams in those places, vacation/PTO time wasn't rigorously tracked. All three companies officially had vacation and tracked it, but the teams and managers I worked with didn't. We did put in for vacation, but if we came back early, or extended it a few days (with reasonable notice), it probably would not ever go into the system. If we were out of the office a day unexpectedly due to illness or family thing, that was almost never put into the system. If we wanted to take a vacation longer than the number of days we had available, that was just allowed. From 1997 until 2009 I worked for an enormous (at one time, 'Fortune 1') company. From 2009 until now, I've worked for a pair of mature tech companies in the SF Bay Area. In my personal experience, it all came down to the nature of the teams you were on, and the managers.
goronbjorn 12y ago
If there was an HN equivalent of Reddit Gold, you'd get it for this.
JoshTriplett 12y ago
One key item not noted here: there's a certain minimum amount of vacation you need to take in a row before you stop thinking about work and start actually taking a break. A week normally isn't enough; you need several in a row. Personally, I like my company's policy of giving periodic sabbaticals, in addition to vacation.

hmexx 12y ago

Amusing :)

my_username_is_ 12y ago

I'm curious if any companies have required (minimum) amounts of vacation. Taking a break seems to be a general positive for productivity, but people with unlimited vacation seem to not take it. What if you were obligated to?

deciplex 12y ago
Most jurisdictions require a certain number of days out of the office for people who work in finance. In Japan, it's ten consecutive business days each year. In the US I believe it's five.
erikw 12y ago
Required vacation time is a security best practice, especially for anyone handling money. This makes it more difficult to perpetrate fraud. It also prevents institutional knowledge from being trapped with individuals, as at least one other person must know how to perform the role of the vacationee.
- delecti 12y ago
  Can you explain how it makes it more difficult to perpetuate fraud? I've never worked handling money, so I can't picture how that would be the case.
  - zrail 12y ago
    Say you're a bank employee who handles money. It'd be pretty easy to just slip some off the top of each stack every day and take it home. Or arrange the software to skim some into a separate account and pull that money out often enough that the balance never gets high enough to be suspicious. Both of those things, plus many more, require daily or weekly effort. If you're out of the office, something will go amiss and you'll get caught.
oostevo 12y ago
It's fairly commonplace in the federal government to have 'use it or lose it' leave. Only a certain amount of vacation hours can roll over from one year to the next, so those which you don't use and don't roll over are lost. While it's not mandatory to take that leave, it's a very good excuse for why you want to take several days off. See more here: http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/leave-year-beginning-and-ending-dates/ http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-adm...
Spooky23 12y ago
Usually internal controls require that financial people in payables/receivables take a least a week off.
jeffasinger 12y ago
Banks have this. In fact, the FDIC requires it. It's harder to cover up fraudulent trading if you're not there.

edpichler 12y ago

Agreed, every people is different. There isn't the "formula for all". I'm from Brazil and got curious about the "unlimited vacation", how it works?

NathanKP 12y ago
The startup I'm at has "unlimited vacation". Basically there is no set limit on vacation days and we can pretty much take vacation whenever we want if we just give the other people some advance notice say a week or so ahead of time. That said I have only taken a few weeks of vacation in the last few years for some reason. I should take advantage of it more.
michaelochurch 12y ago
I'm from Brazil and got curious about the "unlimited vacation", how it works? The U.S. is the only advanced economy without a vacation floor. (To join the EU, 20 days is the lower limit.) Three weeks is typical for an average job (but some companies are sleazy and pool sick time and vacation under "PTO") and two for a crap job. It's surprising how reliably you can predict the quality of a company and job based on vacation allotment. Four weeks: solid, professional, you'll be treated as an adult. Three: average, mediocre. Two: dysfunctional, run the fuck away. Subtract one week if they use that pooled bullshit ("PTO") where sick leave is deducted from vacation. It's a horrible policy, because it means people come into work sick and everyone gets sick more often, but not only is it (shockingly) legal in the US to deduct sick days from vacation, it's not all that rare. Generally, the assumption is that you should get one week off per decade (e.g. 2-3 weeks in your 20s, 3-4 in your 30s, 4-5 in your 40s) and that, if you have less than that, you're probably too old for the job you're in (you should be further along). That's not a legal requirement. It's just the cultural expectation. If you're 50 and you're still on two weeks, you haven't succeeded at life. (It's different for consultants, who get no "paid" vacation but charge a higher daily rate. They can generally take off when they want, and can make more than most salaried people working 100 days/year. If you can pull it off, that seems to be the way to go after 40.) Some startups have undefined vacation policies. This can be really good (if there's a positive culture) or really terrible (if it devolves into a race-to-the-bottom dynamic). It depends. (The one company, with more than 50 people, that I worked at with "unlimited" vacation was terrible. That's not casual, of course, and it's just one data point.) Better is to set a guideline (4 weeks minimum) but allow exceptions. In software, the more talented people (until they can become independent) solve this by working "from home" and doing a bit of working travel. Free of office distractions and interruptions, you can actually accomplish more in a 3-hour "day" than most people get done in their 8-10. The downside of WFH is that you're still expected to be available during the full 8 hours, and if people get the sense that you're getting your work done in three, then they ask why you didn't ask for more work.

stygiansonic 12y ago

Good points. This is sort of a corollary that "everyone is different". You wouldn't buy your shoes based on the average male/female shoe size so why would you structure something as personal as vacation based on someone else's experiences? Best way to discover what's optimal for you in such personal matters is trial-and-error. It's your life - experiment and find what makes you feel good. :)

lemming 12y ago

In other words, there is no way to make a meaningful universal statement about vacation. Except this bit: Taking a break is good for most people.

shurcooL 12y ago
But... but it kills your github contribution streak.
- andrewd18 12y ago
  Quick, before you go, write two scripts and corresponding cron jobs that convert tabs to N spaces, or N spaces to tabs. Then, set them up to commit to your favorite repo on alternating days. Now you can enjoy your vacation while pissing off your fellow contributors at the same time!
  - dm2 12y ago
    Spaces to tabs please.
    - malyk 12y ago
      2 spaces 4eva!
    - jackweirdy 12y ago
      So you can convert them back again, right?
- pgeorgi 12y ago
  Luckily github only looks at the commit date :-)
  - JoshTriplett 12y ago
    Which is quite easy to manipulate, with amusing results: https://github.com/jbranchaud/commitart https://github.com/jbranchaud/commitart

hipsterrific 12y ago

My previous job had unlimited PTO and that team sucked mega-donkey balls. It worked despite the culture, here's how: - large vacation time was scheduled around projects. The SPM gave large priority to devs over the business. Thus priorities were reduced to meet resources for that sprint (SCRUM). - We had a flexible work schedule so if you needed to be home because the guy fixing your water heater is coming at 3, we made that possible. The philosophy was that as long as you were meeting your targets, everything was peachy. - We had one guy who would occassionally go on two/three day breaks and not tell anyone - including the SPM. As a team, we just left him alone and if he can't finish his task, oh well, we didn't bail him out. - Ironically, most of us took fewer vacation days with unlimited PTO. You have the outliers who will gladly abuse it, but prior to my departure, I took a total of four weeks (20 days) of total vacation time. Most companies give that anyways. Simply put, as long as we gave a long enough notice and put things into the engineering calendar, no one gave a crap. A lot of our unlimited PTO success boils down to prioritizing resources and expectations with the business. This company is around 300 people, so not a small company by all means. We just ensured that we all gave appropriate notice. For me, my formula was 1 month advanced notice for every week I wanted to take, so three weeks off meant three months ahead.

ritchiea 12y ago
I don't think most companies in the US give 4 weeks PTO. Currently I am contracting but at my last full time gig standard was 1 week, I pushed at hire time and got 2. What are other people's experience with this?
- fataliss 12y ago
  I think the US standard is more around 15 days of PTO. That's what I get here. Plus the week between Christmas and New year that is for everybody.
- logfromblammo 12y ago
  When I started at this place, I had 10 days of vacation and about 8 sick days per year. Within the first 3 months, I had no more vacation, no more sick days, and just 15 days of PTO. Note the mathematical inequality. We were, of course, then required to use PTO days when the office was shuttered due to dangerous weather, and everyone got the flu because no one wanted to scuttle their own summer vacation plans by staying home sick in February. My experience is that American companies hate the idea that their employees might prefer to do anything at all other than to make more money for the company than it costs to pay out their benefits and wages. This is not a theoretical hate, but an actual, almost tangible hate. They are completely furious that their inefficient meat-robots continually whine about needing to eat, sleep, and eliminate wastes. Never mind wanting to actually leave the workplace. US companies emphatically do not offer 4 weeks PTO to new hires. You would be lucky to get that after 5 years of continuous employment with the same company. Your mileage, of course, may vary, especially if you are in a particularly labor-friendly job market. My personal experience, however, is that I have never been able to take a vacation longer than 9 continuous days, and those were often constrained by weekends and paid holidays, resulting in 4 days spent from PTO, and 5 days from weekends and holidays. I would be willing to put up with some of the negative aspects of having a union, if it could manage even as much as stopping my non-paycheck benefits from eroding a tiny bit every year. I have had enough.

Diederich 12y ago

I'll add one bit of colour. At the three places I have worked since 1997, specifically, the teams in those places, vacation/PTO time wasn't rigorously tracked. All three companies officially had vacation and tracked it, but the teams and managers I worked with didn't. We did put in for vacation, but if we came back early, or extended it a few days (with reasonable notice), it probably would not ever go into the system. If we were out of the office a day unexpectedly due to illness or family thing, that was almost never put into the system. If we wanted to take a vacation longer than the number of days we had available, that was just allowed. From 1997 until 2009 I worked for an enormous (at one time, 'Fortune 1') company. From 2009 until now, I've worked for a pair of mature tech companies in the SF Bay Area. In my personal experience, it all came down to the nature of the teams you were on, and the managers.

goronbjorn 12y ago

If there was an HN equivalent of Reddit Gold, you'd get it for this.

JoshTriplett 12y ago

One key item not noted here: there's a certain minimum amount of vacation you need to take in a row before you stop thinking about work and start actually taking a break. A week normally isn't enough; you need several in a row. Personally, I like my company's policy of giving periodic sabbaticals, in addition to vacation.