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To be fair though, hasn't everyone who has started playing with HTTP in code manipulated online polls at some point just to learn? Does anyone actually put any

by mnem 12y ago

To be fair though, hasn't everyone who has started playing with HTTP in code manipulated online polls at some point just to learn? Does anyone actually put any weight in online polls other than linkbait headline sites?

ejr 12y ago
Well a significant percentage of HN folk certainly, but I doubt this translates well outside this sphere. I'm more alarmed by the email spoofing. Isn't this the same as manufacturing evidence? Consider: An entity is under surveillance, however the powers that be decide the scope is too limited. What better way to invite scrutiny than ensuring an email from the desired target arrives in the monitored entity's inbox?
kubiiii 12y ago
Apparently UK government does.
cma 12y ago
You realize you are asking this on a site which is basically a continuous online poll, right? :P
davb 12y ago
Consider online opinion polls around the Scottish independence debate. Whichever side you support, it's easy to recognise the political and democratic ramifications of an opinion poll being altered to reflect the current government's position.
- cmdkeen 12y ago
  Except there are plenty of real polls, being conducted by reputable polling companies, that people actually pay attention to. GCHQ aren't manipulating Scottish independence, they have plenty of Scottish staff, it would leak and that would be ammunition for the Nats.
tripzilch 12y ago
Of course. But that is nothing "to be fair" about. It's wrong to do so if you're a teenage hacker who just discovered scripting, and it's wrong to do so if you're a government. And the latter is IMO much worse than some teenage kid playing around because of scale, impact, accountability and the fact that, in a "democracy", the government should be influenced by the people and not the other way around.
- mnem 12y ago
  Really? It's wrong? By what measure? It's certainly not illegal to manipulate online polls. In fact, I personally find it quite amusing to do so, in certain cases. Do you agree? [ ] Yes [ ] No
  - tripzilch 12y ago
    I agree it can be amusing. I try to never conflate the meaning of the words "illegal" and "wrong", as they are rather orthogonal, even if many people do not realize this. And I think it's wrong (unethical) to do so for a multitude of reasons. Two main ones are because it's misleading to people reading/interpreting the results, and that it's actively trying to sabotage the intent of whoever set up the poll. Don't get me wrong though, if we're talking about a stupid or silly poll, on a stupid or silly site, or if it's in the context of a really good prank, etc, it can be a forgiveable type of "wrong". In fact in certain circumstances one could even argue that it's not actually completely wrong, simply because I wouldn't want to live with a system of ethics where pranks are never right. That's a tricky one (as is often the case with discussions about ethics). However, that's not really the type of manipulating of polls we were discussing here.
fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
>Does anyone actually put any weight in online polls... Yes, their "results" are often read on daily news broadcasts.

by mnem 12y ago

ejr 12y ago

Well a significant percentage of HN folk certainly, but I doubt this translates well outside this sphere. I'm more alarmed by the email spoofing. Isn't this the same as manufacturing evidence? Consider: An entity is under surveillance, however the powers that be decide the scope is too limited. What better way to invite scrutiny than ensuring an email from the desired target arrives in the monitored entity's inbox?

kubiiii 12y ago

Apparently UK government does.

cma 12y ago

You realize you are asking this on a site which is basically a continuous online poll, right? :P

davb 12y ago

Consider online opinion polls around the Scottish independence debate. Whichever side you support, it's easy to recognise the political and democratic ramifications of an opinion poll being altered to reflect the current government's position.

cmdkeen 12y ago
Except there are plenty of real polls, being conducted by reputable polling companies, that people actually pay attention to. GCHQ aren't manipulating Scottish independence, they have plenty of Scottish staff, it would leak and that would be ammunition for the Nats.

tripzilch 12y ago

Of course. But that is nothing "to be fair" about. It's wrong to do so if you're a teenage hacker who just discovered scripting, and it's wrong to do so if you're a government. And the latter is IMO much worse than some teenage kid playing around because of scale, impact, accountability and the fact that, in a "democracy", the government should be influenced by the people and not the other way around.

mnem 12y ago
Really? It's wrong? By what measure? It's certainly not illegal to manipulate online polls. In fact, I personally find it quite amusing to do so, in certain cases. Do you agree? [ ] Yes [ ] No
- tripzilch 12y ago
  I agree it can be amusing. I try to never conflate the meaning of the words "illegal" and "wrong", as they are rather orthogonal, even if many people do not realize this. And I think it's wrong (unethical) to do so for a multitude of reasons. Two main ones are because it's misleading to people reading/interpreting the results, and that it's actively trying to sabotage the intent of whoever set up the poll. Don't get me wrong though, if we're talking about a stupid or silly poll, on a stupid or silly site, or if it's in the context of a really good prank, etc, it can be a forgiveable type of "wrong". In fact in certain circumstances one could even argue that it's not actually completely wrong, simply because I wouldn't want to live with a system of ethics where pranks are never right. That's a tricky one (as is often the case with discussions about ethics). However, that's not really the type of manipulating of polls we were discussing here.

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago

>Does anyone actually put any weight in online polls... Yes, their "results" are often read on daily news broadcasts.