6 ms·

Own your own data

153 points by dalek2point3 12y ago

selectout 12y ago
This is an idea/concept that has been around for awhile but nobody has been able to execute (well) on it. I like the initial work brought forth through this team and will definitely continue to watch with a close eye. I think this is a natural progression to the future that the industry doesn't want to happen. Best of luck to the team though and everyone else working on similar projects!
lifeisstillgood 12y ago
This, or something like this, is my best guess at dealing with the "loss" of privacy. THere are some exciting ideas coming out of (of all places) UK local government, looking at ways to tame the crazy number of proprietary apps that think they should own the database at the centre of their world - simply by forcing the data into the app then back again.
- mozboz 12y ago
  Can you provide a reference to, or a better description of the 'ideas coming out of UK local government' please?
  - lifeisstillgood 12y ago
    Hard to remember - some devs / architects I met at LGA conference are trying to reduce their internal app footprints and move to a database is not the cow nor yours model.
jchrisa 12y ago
This is great. Assuming something like this becomes the new normal, I feel like the next problem is micro-payments so that people can get paid for their data.
asdad 12y ago
We have been working on something similar for a few years now: https://register.blib.us https://register.blib.us
jmathai 12y ago
I've spent the last 3 years in this space[1]. 2 of those were with a fellowship from the Shuttleworth Foundation[2]. I applaud all the efforts to free up and decentralize data. I believe it's the future but the way we're approaching it is making that a very distant future. My suggestions are simple. Data ownership will not be solved by technology. Focus and practice on framing the solution in a way that people connect with. Build that into the fabric of your team. And be prepared to spend a lot of time figuring out how you can describe what a world where you own your data looks like and how it is drastically better than today's world. It's all too easy to get caught up in writing code. [1] https://github.com/photo/frontend https://github.com/photo/frontend [2] https://www.shuttleworthfoundation.org/fellows/current/jaisen-mathai/ https://www.shuttleworthfoundation.org/fellows/current/jaise...
- davidcollantes 12y ago
  So, Trovebox has ongoing costs, plus the costs of the storage itself?
  - jmathai 12y ago
    We changed the model quite a bit in 2013 when we began focusing on serving the needs of businesses (namely, non-profits). When we were consumer facing we had a free account with upload limits and an unlimited account for $29/year. We decided to not differentiate prices based on storage; ours or yours. The pricing page got too complex. That being said, nearly everything we've done is open source and even when running as a hosted service we decoupled application logic from data storage. That was our goal from the beginning. We went as far as enabling you to switch storage services (i.e move from Dropbox to S3) with a single click. My mission was to build the technology but in a way non-technical users would understand. I think we accomplished that. Being open source was the underlying prerequisite since it's important if you start on a hosted account you could switch to your own instance or someone else's hosted service. All that said, I don't think there's a huge market for this in the consumer space today. I hope in time that demand grows because an Internet the way we were envision looks great. I blogged about leaving the consumer space here, https://medium.com/@jmathai/hello-2014-goodbye-consumer-photo-internet-service-b1234eaf75b https://medium.com/@jmathai/hello-2014-goodbye-consumer-phot...
hyperliner 12y ago
Owning your own data sounds good. Unfortunately, once you share a piece of data, it's out there forever. What we all need is to have our own personal servers that validate tokens. Then we would just give out these one-time use tokens to people or institutions. Does the bank need a SSN? Well, here is an auto-generated token. Bank stores that, but to validate it, it calls your personal little server, which checks for use. Unfortunately, systems are built which require personal information. So eventually, for example, the government or a third party service to get credit reports needs your actual SSN. Then you are hosed. Alternatively, all information could be free, but ALL systems would require your personal server for "permission to use." That of course is highly complicated. The problem is everybody / every app thinks they need some piece of information. It bothers me when I go to a weekend clinic to take my son and they ask for an SSN. Why? I am going to pay you and walk out of here. "We need to send the report to your real pediatrician." well, just send it. It's not like they wont be able to file it. I hope somebody smart comes up with a definitive solution, but a lot of processes, people's attitudes and systems need to be recreated from scratch.
- judk 12y ago
  The more people complain and refuse to let their SSN be cusomter id, the more vendors will backoff. OTOH, there are so many "legitimate" SSN abusers that it's a lost cause.
- pjc50 12y ago
  The US use of SSN seems strange to me, given that the UK equivalent ("NI", national insurance number) isn't nearly as commonly asked for. You need to give it to your employer and sometimes your bank and that's it. Healthcare has its own numbering system, but I've no idea what mine is and it's been years since I needed it for anything.
lsjroberts 12y ago
I suggest viewing a related idea Indie: https://ind.ie https://ind.ie
amirmc 12y ago
I'm in favour of making it easy for individuals to own their 'digital' life. However, simply having a 'data store' isn't enough. You need to have a system that actually runs some infrastructure for you and then 'data collection' is an obvious side-effect. There are number of projects I'm involved with that take different approaches to this, including technical infrastructure for distributed systems and personal clouds [1,3] as well as business models and market places [2]. Systems like these can provide benefits to end-users that include resilience and flexibility -- it's not just about privacy. [1] http://nymote.org/blog/2013/introducing-nymote/ http://nymote.org/blog/2013/introducing-nymote/ and http://openmirage.org/wiki/overview-of-mirage http://openmirage.org/wiki/overview-of-mirage [2] http://hubofallthings.com/what-is-the-hat/ http://hubofallthings.com/what-is-the-hat/ [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8020635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8020635
kentonv 12y ago
Funny that half the comments so far are people linking to their own projects in this space. Yep, me too. Try a demo: https://demo.sandstorm.io/demo https://demo.sandstorm.io/demo And here's the code: https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm
- amirmc 12y ago
  I take that as a positive sign. I'll be trying Sandstorm out soon and wish you well with the crowd funding (I'll be contributing once I'm at my desktop).
  - kentonv 12y ago
    Thank you!
- andor 12y ago
  Impressive demo. It looks good and everything works ;-) For those who missed it, there was a thread about Sandstorm two weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7961118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7961118
- ddorian43 12y ago
  And indiegogo: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sandstorm-io-personal-cloud-platform https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sandstorm-io-personal-clo...
mrb 12y ago
My proposal in this space is unique: decentralized AND built on an existing protocol, email! See: http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=76 http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=76 You don't even need special software to set it up. Standard email autoresponder features make it work (see my demo).
- overdrivetg 12y ago
  Is there some reason this is better than being built on an existing protocol, http!? "It is quite technical to set up, but in the future if the technology becomes more popular we could imagine webmails making it easier to set up." The problem is adoption, and this seems to have the same problems as any other approach there, maybe more. Interesting thought, good luck if you keep pursuing it - sorry to be a downer but it seems like a long-shot IMO.
  - mrb 12y ago
    "Is there some reason this is better than being built on an existing protocol, http!?" Yes: not everybody has a web space to publish HTTP data, but everybody has email. So intuitively building something on email has better chances of gaining adoption.
- k__ 12y ago
  I thought about using smartphones for this kind of thing. They are always online, like a web-server. Also, everyone can install an app. A server which runs on a smartphone and holds all your data and only friends and services you like, get that data. The biggest problem would be traffic, I guess, but it could probably be minimized with sending only deltas and p2p-meshs. This system could use a web-api to integrate better into current landscape.
infocollector 12y ago
This space is not easy to penetrate. VCs are not interested because there is no easy short term money in it. Large companies are not interested because they would like something with market traction (impressive prototype stage) to buy. Developers who are in this space know well that this requires way more money than you can raise from Kickstarter. It would be great if all of the people who posted on this page did a google hangout and joined hands (or at least a subset). I think this is bigger than any of these projects individually. Succeeding in this space means something as big as Google, Facebook and Apple. If you are interested in the hangout idea and would like to meet up with other similar project founders (or like minded people), perhaps you can drop me a message (with your email) and we can get started?
- kentonv 12y ago
  The trick is to find a working bootstrapping strategy. Our approach with sandstorm.io is to make sure it's easy to port existing open source apps. Even with just the platform we have now and the apps we're porting, I feel like Sandstorm is already a product useful enough to stand on its own. Crowdfunding (as we're doing; http://igg.me/at/sandstorm http://igg.me/at/sandstorm) can't pay for a revolution, but can pay for the MVP, which can then pay for the next iteration, and so on. "Joining hands" sounds nice in theory but in practice more developers simply does not equal more productivity. At the early experimental stage, it's important to have many small teams iterating quickly on different approaches; a single large team will simply spend all its time arguing and will get nowhere (a lesson I have unfortunately learned the hard way). I am happy to see lots of people working on solutions to this problem because it makes it more likely that one of them will succeed. :)
  - infocollector 12y ago
    Thanks for the comment. I agree that in practice more developers don't equal more productivity. And I agree that things happen better in small teams. But I still don't see the point of not talking to each other, and learning from each other. One reason I suggested what I suggested is this: If you just run some one else's Linux applications on linux boxes, and call it a personal data store, you have a bunch of problems to solve: 1. No cohesion in UIs 2. No cohesion in APIs 3. A crappy user experience. 4. Code Maintenance As soon as you think of solving these problems, you'll see the problem of scale, of the number of programmers needed to do things (both frontend and backend). I still think that the people interested in this should talk to each other(, and perhaps try a divide and conquer approach -- whenever possible), compared to just trying to patch each other's code to make it work in a small team. I hope you agree, that this is not an easy problem to solve technically. At least I think so.
weilu 12y ago
Why has nobody mentioned https://unhosted.org/ https://unhosted.org/ yet?
- black_puppydog 12y ago
  That's what I thought. They have been around for a while, too, haven't they?
ejain 12y ago
Having control over your data and paying someone to host the data are not mutually exclusive.
fred_durst 12y ago
Has someone already coined this movement the "functional cloud"?
orbifold 12y ago
One thing that is missing from most homes is symmetrical internet access. As long as most people can download data significantly faster than upload them, data hosted in the cloud has advantages. Ideally eventually internet connections would become symmetric and fast enough for everyone to have their own low power server with a static ipv6 address at home, with which they can sync all their data. Of course this does not solve the problem that most sever software has complicated configuration and open source alternatives often lack the polish of commercial products. But as soon as there is a switch to ipv6 and symmetric internet access, I see little reason why a decentralized solution would not win.
exodust 12y ago
I like the idea of owning and controlling the permissions of all my data at the source, then those settings applying everywhere on the internet - in all the different social media services and systems out there. Stored in the cloud space of my choice. Continually updated as I live my life, my data would be something I own that I could selectively share to social media services or other individuals or systems with fine-grained control over the whole lot. Services like Facebook would need to change how they worked. Facebook would not disappear it would just shift its focus to offering a place to use your data. Taking back the data keys would be a cool direction to evolve, and fun having new responsibilities of managing your own living-breathing data, be it stored in the cloud, your phone, or an encrypted USB stick- up to you.

153 points by dalek2point3 12y ago

This is an idea/concept that has been around for awhile but nobody has been able to execute (well) on it. I like the initial work brought forth through this team and will definitely continue to watch with a close eye. I think this is a natural progression to the future that the industry doesn't want to happen. Best of luck to the team though and everyone else working on similar projects!

lifeisstillgood 12y ago

This, or something like this, is my best guess at dealing with the "loss" of privacy. THere are some exciting ideas coming out of (of all places) UK local government, looking at ways to tame the crazy number of proprietary apps that think they should own the database at the centre of their world - simply by forcing the data into the app then back again.

mozboz 12y ago
Can you provide a reference to, or a better description of the 'ideas coming out of UK local government' please?
- lifeisstillgood 12y ago
  Hard to remember - some devs / architects I met at LGA conference are trying to reduce their internal app footprints and move to a database is not the cow nor yours model.

jchrisa 12y ago

This is great. Assuming something like this becomes the new normal, I feel like the next problem is micro-payments so that people can get paid for their data.

asdad 12y ago

We have been working on something similar for a few years now: https://register.blib.us https://register.blib.us

jmathai 12y ago

I've spent the last 3 years in this space[1]. 2 of those were with a fellowship from the Shuttleworth Foundation[2]. I applaud all the efforts to free up and decentralize data. I believe it's the future but the way we're approaching it is making that a very distant future. My suggestions are simple. Data ownership will not be solved by technology. Focus and practice on framing the solution in a way that people connect with. Build that into the fabric of your team. And be prepared to spend a lot of time figuring out how you can describe what a world where you own your data looks like and how it is drastically better than today's world. It's all too easy to get caught up in writing code. [1] https://github.com/photo/frontend https://github.com/photo/frontend [2] https://www.shuttleworthfoundation.org/fellows/current/jaisen-mathai/ https://www.shuttleworthfoundation.org/fellows/current/jaise...

davidcollantes 12y ago
So, Trovebox has ongoing costs, plus the costs of the storage itself?
- jmathai 12y ago
  We changed the model quite a bit in 2013 when we began focusing on serving the needs of businesses (namely, non-profits). When we were consumer facing we had a free account with upload limits and an unlimited account for $29/year. We decided to not differentiate prices based on storage; ours or yours. The pricing page got too complex. That being said, nearly everything we've done is open source and even when running as a hosted service we decoupled application logic from data storage. That was our goal from the beginning. We went as far as enabling you to switch storage services (i.e move from Dropbox to S3) with a single click. My mission was to build the technology but in a way non-technical users would understand. I think we accomplished that. Being open source was the underlying prerequisite since it's important if you start on a hosted account you could switch to your own instance or someone else's hosted service. All that said, I don't think there's a huge market for this in the consumer space today. I hope in time that demand grows because an Internet the way we were envision looks great. I blogged about leaving the consumer space here, https://medium.com/@jmathai/hello-2014-goodbye-consumer-photo-internet-service-b1234eaf75b https://medium.com/@jmathai/hello-2014-goodbye-consumer-phot...

hyperliner 12y ago

Owning your own data sounds good. Unfortunately, once you share a piece of data, it's out there forever. What we all need is to have our own personal servers that validate tokens. Then we would just give out these one-time use tokens to people or institutions. Does the bank need a SSN? Well, here is an auto-generated token. Bank stores that, but to validate it, it calls your personal little server, which checks for use. Unfortunately, systems are built which require personal information. So eventually, for example, the government or a third party service to get credit reports needs your actual SSN. Then you are hosed. Alternatively, all information could be free, but ALL systems would require your personal server for "permission to use." That of course is highly complicated. The problem is everybody / every app thinks they need some piece of information. It bothers me when I go to a weekend clinic to take my son and they ask for an SSN. Why? I am going to pay you and walk out of here. "We need to send the report to your real pediatrician." well, just send it. It's not like they wont be able to file it. I hope somebody smart comes up with a definitive solution, but a lot of processes, people's attitudes and systems need to be recreated from scratch.

judk 12y ago
The more people complain and refuse to let their SSN be cusomter id, the more vendors will backoff. OTOH, there are so many "legitimate" SSN abusers that it's a lost cause.
pjc50 12y ago
The US use of SSN seems strange to me, given that the UK equivalent ("NI", national insurance number) isn't nearly as commonly asked for. You need to give it to your employer and sometimes your bank and that's it. Healthcare has its own numbering system, but I've no idea what mine is and it's been years since I needed it for anything.

lsjroberts 12y ago

I suggest viewing a related idea Indie: https://ind.ie https://ind.ie

amirmc 12y ago

I'm in favour of making it easy for individuals to own their 'digital' life. However, simply having a 'data store' isn't enough. You need to have a system that actually runs some infrastructure for you and then 'data collection' is an obvious side-effect. There are number of projects I'm involved with that take different approaches to this, including technical infrastructure for distributed systems and personal clouds [1,3] as well as business models and market places [2]. Systems like these can provide benefits to end-users that include resilience and flexibility -- it's not just about privacy. [1] http://nymote.org/blog/2013/introducing-nymote/ http://nymote.org/blog/2013/introducing-nymote/ and http://openmirage.org/wiki/overview-of-mirage http://openmirage.org/wiki/overview-of-mirage [2] http://hubofallthings.com/what-is-the-hat/ http://hubofallthings.com/what-is-the-hat/ [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8020635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8020635

kentonv 12y ago

Funny that half the comments so far are people linking to their own projects in this space. Yep, me too. Try a demo: https://demo.sandstorm.io/demo https://demo.sandstorm.io/demo And here's the code: https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm

amirmc 12y ago
I take that as a positive sign. I'll be trying Sandstorm out soon and wish you well with the crowd funding (I'll be contributing once I'm at my desktop).
- kentonv 12y ago
  Thank you!
andor 12y ago
Impressive demo. It looks good and everything works ;-) For those who missed it, there was a thread about Sandstorm two weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7961118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7961118
ddorian43 12y ago
And indiegogo: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sandstorm-io-personal-cloud-platform https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sandstorm-io-personal-clo...

mrb 12y ago

My proposal in this space is unique: decentralized AND built on an existing protocol, email! See: http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=76 http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=76 You don't even need special software to set it up. Standard email autoresponder features make it work (see my demo).

overdrivetg 12y ago
Is there some reason this is better than being built on an existing protocol, http!? "It is quite technical to set up, but in the future if the technology becomes more popular we could imagine webmails making it easier to set up." The problem is adoption, and this seems to have the same problems as any other approach there, maybe more. Interesting thought, good luck if you keep pursuing it - sorry to be a downer but it seems like a long-shot IMO.
- mrb 12y ago
  "Is there some reason this is better than being built on an existing protocol, http!?" Yes: not everybody has a web space to publish HTTP data, but everybody has email. So intuitively building something on email has better chances of gaining adoption.
k__ 12y ago
I thought about using smartphones for this kind of thing. They are always online, like a web-server. Also, everyone can install an app. A server which runs on a smartphone and holds all your data and only friends and services you like, get that data. The biggest problem would be traffic, I guess, but it could probably be minimized with sending only deltas and p2p-meshs. This system could use a web-api to integrate better into current landscape.

infocollector 12y ago

This space is not easy to penetrate. VCs are not interested because there is no easy short term money in it. Large companies are not interested because they would like something with market traction (impressive prototype stage) to buy. Developers who are in this space know well that this requires way more money than you can raise from Kickstarter. It would be great if all of the people who posted on this page did a google hangout and joined hands (or at least a subset). I think this is bigger than any of these projects individually. Succeeding in this space means something as big as Google, Facebook and Apple. If you are interested in the hangout idea and would like to meet up with other similar project founders (or like minded people), perhaps you can drop me a message (with your email) and we can get started?

kentonv 12y ago
The trick is to find a working bootstrapping strategy. Our approach with sandstorm.io is to make sure it's easy to port existing open source apps. Even with just the platform we have now and the apps we're porting, I feel like Sandstorm is already a product useful enough to stand on its own. Crowdfunding (as we're doing; http://igg.me/at/sandstorm http://igg.me/at/sandstorm) can't pay for a revolution, but can pay for the MVP, which can then pay for the next iteration, and so on. "Joining hands" sounds nice in theory but in practice more developers simply does not equal more productivity. At the early experimental stage, it's important to have many small teams iterating quickly on different approaches; a single large team will simply spend all its time arguing and will get nowhere (a lesson I have unfortunately learned the hard way). I am happy to see lots of people working on solutions to this problem because it makes it more likely that one of them will succeed. :)
- infocollector 12y ago
  Thanks for the comment. I agree that in practice more developers don't equal more productivity. And I agree that things happen better in small teams. But I still don't see the point of not talking to each other, and learning from each other. One reason I suggested what I suggested is this: If you just run some one else's Linux applications on linux boxes, and call it a personal data store, you have a bunch of problems to solve: 1. No cohesion in UIs 2. No cohesion in APIs 3. A crappy user experience. 4. Code Maintenance As soon as you think of solving these problems, you'll see the problem of scale, of the number of programmers needed to do things (both frontend and backend). I still think that the people interested in this should talk to each other(, and perhaps try a divide and conquer approach -- whenever possible), compared to just trying to patch each other's code to make it work in a small team. I hope you agree, that this is not an easy problem to solve technically. At least I think so.

weilu 12y ago

Why has nobody mentioned https://unhosted.org/ https://unhosted.org/ yet?

black_puppydog 12y ago
That's what I thought. They have been around for a while, too, haven't they?

ejain 12y ago

Having control over your data and paying someone to host the data are not mutually exclusive.

fred_durst 12y ago

Has someone already coined this movement the "functional cloud"?

orbifold 12y ago

One thing that is missing from most homes is symmetrical internet access. As long as most people can download data significantly faster than upload them, data hosted in the cloud has advantages. Ideally eventually internet connections would become symmetric and fast enough for everyone to have their own low power server with a static ipv6 address at home, with which they can sync all their data. Of course this does not solve the problem that most sever software has complicated configuration and open source alternatives often lack the polish of commercial products. But as soon as there is a switch to ipv6 and symmetric internet access, I see little reason why a decentralized solution would not win.

exodust 12y ago

I like the idea of owning and controlling the permissions of all my data at the source, then those settings applying everywhere on the internet - in all the different social media services and systems out there. Stored in the cloud space of my choice. Continually updated as I live my life, my data would be something I own that I could selectively share to social media services or other individuals or systems with fine-grained control over the whole lot. Services like Facebook would need to change how they worked. Facebook would not disappear it would just shift its focus to offering a place to use your data. Taking back the data keys would be a cool direction to evolve, and fun having new responsibilities of managing your own living-breathing data, be it stored in the cloud, your phone, or an encrypted USB stick- up to you.