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Is it just me or is this not at all inconsistent with Verizon's arguments? They've been saying the whole time that this link is meant to be balanced with rough

by mikecb 12y ago

Is it just me or is this not at all inconsistent with Verizon's arguments? They've been saying the whole time that this link is meant to be balanced with roughly equal upstream and downstream, and they showed it was not. What am I missing?

Crito 12y ago
Residential ISPs have pretty much never, in the history of ever, not had asymmetrical traffic. Netflix may have aggravated that, but they did not change that.
- RKearney 12y ago
  What made me laugh the most was when Comcast posted about a peering dispute with Level3[0] >Q8: Comcast says that Level 3 sends it 5 times the traffic that Comcast sends Level 3. Is that true? If it is true, why shouldn't Level 3 pay for the traffic it sends to Comcast? Comcast goes on to argue that Level3 pushes 5X more data onto the Comcast network than Comcast pushes onto the Level3 network. What I find ridiculous about the whole claim is that every single one of Comcast's residential internet packages has 5X higher download speeds than upload speed. (e.g. 105Mbps/20Mbps, 50Mbps/10Mbps, 20Mbps/4Mbps) Comcast provides internet speeds that force customers to download 5x faster than they can upload and somehow Comcast is surprised that their customers are pulling down 5X more data then they're pushing to Level3? [0] http://corporate.comcast.com/comcast-voices/20-qs-with-accurate-as-about-level-3s-peering-dispute http://corporate.comcast.com/comcast-voices/20-qs-with-accur...
- mikecb 12y ago
  And I don't know how Verizon's backbone is laid out. But they have transit and end-user traffic. Regardless, if Level3 keeps insisting this is a peering point, and then demonstrating that it's more like a transit to ISP link. Which ISPs pay for.
msandford 12y ago
You've missed the part where they're trying to double-bill for the same network traffic. Verizon wants to bill it's customers for the bandwidth that they use. And then for some of that traffic, if it's from Netflix, they also want to bill Netflix. Verizon is the company which is selling asymmetric internet plans so it should come as no surprise to Verizon that their customers are requesting more data than they're sending. But they use this asymmetry to suggest that what's happening between Verizon and Level3 isn't business as usual (which it is) and that they should be able to double bill. Verizon is doing a decent job of spinning but if you really look at what's going on it becomes clear that they're really torturing definitions to make their arguments.
- mikecb 12y ago
  I agree to an extent. But there's a point at which Level3 stops becoming a peer and starts becoming a subscriber. That point is somewhere between equal utilization of Verizon's peering point and (near) total upstream into Verizon's network, just as any Verizon subscriber would have. Where is that point? I'm a Verizon subscriber and I get apoplectic when Netflix stutters, because I know exactly what's happening. But I also don't know what's the exact right model for peering points, and I think net settlement might be a better model.
  - ethanhunt_ 12y ago
    > I agree to an extent. But there's a point at which Level3 stops becoming a peer and starts becoming a subscriber. That point is somewhere between equal utilization of Verizon's peering point and (near) total upstream into Verizon's network, just as any Verizon subscriber would have. Where is that point? That's not true. I pay Verizon $X/mo to deliver the internet to me. And most of what I want delivered at 100mbps is netflix. Now instead of Verizon taking the millions (billions?) in revenue and building out what we're paying for, they're trying to charge netflix (for what they already charged me).
    - mikecb 12y ago
      I have a website I host from home. Am I entitled to free FIOS because someone else on FIOS wants to access it? That's the question. It gets confused in the peering issue. And settlement free peering is important, even essential to how the internet works. And the FCC should absolutely preserve it. But the real question here is, is this a peering relationship anymore. And Verizon has a legitimate argument that it is not based on the sustained differences in traffic flows. I don't know what the answer is to this problem, but I'm not convinced by either Level3/Netflix or Verizon. Personally, if I ran Verizon, I'd be meshing with Google/Netflix/Amazon's networks as much as possible. But I'm not, oh well.
      - mcphage 12y ago
        > Am I entitled to free FIOS because someone else on FIOS wants to access it? That would be up to the arrangement you have with your internet provider.
wmf 12y ago
Following Verizon's argument to its logical conclusion, if the link is unbalanced then Verizon needs to buy transit from Level 3 to make up the difference.
- mikecb 12y ago
  Surely someone should. Level3 is getting squeezed between its customer (Netflix) and its customer's customers.
jimktrains2 12y ago
Thinking only of Verizon the consumer ISP, in what universe are consumers creating as much bandwidth as they consume. Upload speeds for consumer internet are what? 20% 30% the download speed. Verizon the consumer ISP would never generate as much data as they pull.
arg01 12y ago
Netflix did offer to have their client generate random upstream traffic to balance the load. Which netflix says was met with silence in the meeting where they proposed it. It has some amusing implications where netflix saturates verizon's network to pay less.

by mikecb 12y ago

Crito 12y ago

Residential ISPs have pretty much never, in the history of ever, not had asymmetrical traffic. Netflix may have aggravated that, but they did not change that.

RKearney 12y ago
What made me laugh the most was when Comcast posted about a peering dispute with Level3[0] >Q8: Comcast says that Level 3 sends it 5 times the traffic that Comcast sends Level 3. Is that true? If it is true, why shouldn't Level 3 pay for the traffic it sends to Comcast? Comcast goes on to argue that Level3 pushes 5X more data onto the Comcast network than Comcast pushes onto the Level3 network. What I find ridiculous about the whole claim is that every single one of Comcast's residential internet packages has 5X higher download speeds than upload speed. (e.g. 105Mbps/20Mbps, 50Mbps/10Mbps, 20Mbps/4Mbps) Comcast provides internet speeds that force customers to download 5x faster than they can upload and somehow Comcast is surprised that their customers are pulling down 5X more data then they're pushing to Level3? [0] http://corporate.comcast.com/comcast-voices/20-qs-with-accurate-as-about-level-3s-peering-dispute http://corporate.comcast.com/comcast-voices/20-qs-with-accur...
mikecb 12y ago
And I don't know how Verizon's backbone is laid out. But they have transit and end-user traffic. Regardless, if Level3 keeps insisting this is a peering point, and then demonstrating that it's more like a transit to ISP link. Which ISPs pay for.

msandford 12y ago

You've missed the part where they're trying to double-bill for the same network traffic. Verizon wants to bill it's customers for the bandwidth that they use. And then for some of that traffic, if it's from Netflix, they also want to bill Netflix. Verizon is the company which is selling asymmetric internet plans so it should come as no surprise to Verizon that their customers are requesting more data than they're sending. But they use this asymmetry to suggest that what's happening between Verizon and Level3 isn't business as usual (which it is) and that they should be able to double bill. Verizon is doing a decent job of spinning but if you really look at what's going on it becomes clear that they're really torturing definitions to make their arguments.

mikecb 12y ago
I agree to an extent. But there's a point at which Level3 stops becoming a peer and starts becoming a subscriber. That point is somewhere between equal utilization of Verizon's peering point and (near) total upstream into Verizon's network, just as any Verizon subscriber would have. Where is that point? I'm a Verizon subscriber and I get apoplectic when Netflix stutters, because I know exactly what's happening. But I also don't know what's the exact right model for peering points, and I think net settlement might be a better model.
- ethanhunt_ 12y ago
  > I agree to an extent. But there's a point at which Level3 stops becoming a peer and starts becoming a subscriber. That point is somewhere between equal utilization of Verizon's peering point and (near) total upstream into Verizon's network, just as any Verizon subscriber would have. Where is that point? That's not true. I pay Verizon $X/mo to deliver the internet to me. And most of what I want delivered at 100mbps is netflix. Now instead of Verizon taking the millions (billions?) in revenue and building out what we're paying for, they're trying to charge netflix (for what they already charged me).
  - mikecb 12y ago
    I have a website I host from home. Am I entitled to free FIOS because someone else on FIOS wants to access it? That's the question. It gets confused in the peering issue. And settlement free peering is important, even essential to how the internet works. And the FCC should absolutely preserve it. But the real question here is, is this a peering relationship anymore. And Verizon has a legitimate argument that it is not based on the sustained differences in traffic flows. I don't know what the answer is to this problem, but I'm not convinced by either Level3/Netflix or Verizon. Personally, if I ran Verizon, I'd be meshing with Google/Netflix/Amazon's networks as much as possible. But I'm not, oh well.
    - mcphage 12y ago
      > Am I entitled to free FIOS because someone else on FIOS wants to access it? That would be up to the arrangement you have with your internet provider.

wmf 12y ago

Following Verizon's argument to its logical conclusion, if the link is unbalanced then Verizon needs to buy transit from Level 3 to make up the difference.

mikecb 12y ago
Surely someone should. Level3 is getting squeezed between its customer (Netflix) and its customer's customers.

jimktrains2 12y ago

Thinking only of Verizon the consumer ISP, in what universe are consumers creating as much bandwidth as they consume. Upload speeds for consumer internet are what? 20% 30% the download speed. Verizon the consumer ISP would never generate as much data as they pull.

arg01 12y ago

Netflix did offer to have their client generate random upstream traffic to balance the load. Which netflix says was met with silence in the meeting where they proposed it. It has some amusing implications where netflix saturates verizon's network to pay less.