4 ms·

Our startup lets you track the event in real-time, and has thousands of people actively confirming and refuting content as to its validity. There is a lot of fa

Our startup lets you track the event in real-time, and has thousands of people actively confirming and refuting content as to its validity. There is a lot of fake info floating around on Twitter (and even some mainstream media organizations), so act with caution. http://grasswire.com/#/newsfeeds/1e4b388a-8ea7-461d-8acf-ba171941eb12 http://grasswire.com/#/newsfeeds/1e4b388a-8ea7-461d-8acf-ba1... Confirmed: Malaysia Airlines confirms it has lost contact with #MH17 from Amsterdam. Last known position over Ukraine. Was shot down, all passengers dead. The pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine deny shooting it down, and are blaming the Ukrainian armed forces. The Ukraine Defense Ministries claim it was shot down by a BUK missile, which the separatists do have, and it would reach. We also have this interesting translation of Ukraine rebel leader’s VKontakte (Facebook) post regarding another downed airplane: http://pastie.org/9400258 http://pastie.org/9400258. (I translated it, so forgive me for any inaccuracy).

ogig 12y ago
grasswire link has some explicit images, be warned.
- austenallred 12y ago
  Thank you for that; have been meaning to add an "explicit" warning for weeks.
shitgoose 12y ago
Could you provide the link to original "rebel leader’s VKontakte (Facebook) post"?
- austenallred 12y ago
  VKontakte doesn't have a very good "share this specific link feature" - but here it is, probably a couple down now. http://vk.com/strelkov_info http://vk.com/strelkov_info
  - shitgoose 12y ago
    I couldn't find the source for the second part of your translation - "we warned them ...". Has it been removed? I am curious to see if AN-26 was also shot down, or they mistook Boeing for AN-26. EDIT: got the answer in this thread - post was deleted.
  - xentronium 12y ago
    It does have that feature (hover over post date).
- yread 12y ago
  It used to be here http://vk.com/wall-57424472_7256 http://vk.com/wall-57424472_7256 now it's gone http://i.imgur.com/VmwbElq.png http://i.imgur.com/VmwbElq.png oh and here is them bragging that they've captured Buk http://oi58.tinypic.com/29gmnah.jpg http://oi58.tinypic.com/29gmnah.jpg I think it's pretty clear EDIT: there is another image of it https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bswy4VtCUAAJCDS.jpg:orig https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bswy4VtCUAAJCDS.jpg:orig Worse still it is stationed between houses using their own people as human shields
Alupis 12y ago
Why was this civilian plane over Ukraine to begin with? I seem to recall (can't find the link now) that Ukraine declared their airspace closed to civilian aircraft after the Ukrainian Troop Transport plane was shot down recently. Even if the airspace was open, it seems highly risky to fly over a battle-zone anyhow where direct radio communication with troops on the ground may not be possible, and opens a wide door for an accidental grounding, if not on purpose.
- austenallred 12y ago
  The rebel army (there isn't really any government to "declare" anything in eastern Ukraine right now) warned that it was a no-fly zone, but Malaysian probably assumed they were referring to the Ukrainian air force, which had been shelling eastern Ukraine fairly heavily. A recent FAA notice warned of the potential of misidentification of civilian aircraft over eastern Ukraine, but surely nobody thought they would shoot a civilian aircraft out of the sky. That being said, touching eastern Ukraine with a 30,000 ft. pole would probably be less than wise at the moment.
  - Alupis 12y ago
    > A recent FAA notice warned of the potential of misidentification of civilian aircraft over eastern Ukraine, but surely nobody thought they would shoot a civilian aircraft out of the sky. Yes, but without any direct communication, no organized Air Traffic Control, and without tracking satellites, it seems very easy for ground troops to mistake a civilian transport with a military transport. Seems ludicrous for anyone to attempt to fly over Ukraine right now.
    - TheAnimus 12y ago
      >Yes, but without any direct communication, no organized Air Traffic Control, and without tracking satellites, it seems very easy for ground troops to mistake a civilian transport with a military transport. Except for the transponder...
      - 12y ago
grey-area 12y ago
Interesting, the google cache of that post still works: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fvk.com%2Fwall-57424472_7256 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache%3... and the google translation is as follows: Message from the militia. "In the area Torrez just downed plane An-26, lying somewhere in the mine" Progress ". Warned same - not to fly in "our sky." And here is the video the confirmation of the next "ptichkopada." Birdie fell for waste heap, the residential sector is not caught. Peaceful people do not suffer. And also have information about the second downed aircraft, like the Su. " even though the original post has been deleted from VK http://vk.com/wall-57424472_7256 http://vk.com/wall-57424472_7256
- TheAnimus 12y ago
  This is very worrying, an AN-26 does not have the service ceiling of what I would expect the MH flight to be travelling at. A trip seven would be about 2500m higher.
  - vonmoltke 12y ago
    Its also smaller. However, if they identified the target and aimed the missile visually, its possible that they mistook a 777@10000m for an An-26@7500m. I doubt the rebels have much in the way of air search radar. If this was a rebel misidentification, what probably happened is that they fired the missile line-of-sight with the seeker active.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
hackplus 12y ago
Is grasswire your startup? What does it do?
- austenallred 12y ago
  Yes. It's a platform that lets everyone curate and fact-check news in real-time.
powertower 12y ago
> The Ukraine Defense Ministries claim it was shot down by a BUK missile, which the separatists do have, and it would reach. Unless I'm mistaken from the description, it takes 3 vehicles, each serving a separate purpose, to utilize the BUK missile system - with a complex series of operations and coordination between all the components (that can only be done by trained operators). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-missile/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/malaysia-airlines... The evidence against the anti-Kiev militia seems to only show the missile vehicle component. And it's unknown if it was even fully operational (aside from being drive-able on the roads). > We also have this interesting translation of Ukraine rebel leader’s VKontakte (Facebook) post regarding another downed airplane If my understanding is correct (from his other posts), the original info/report came from a post on their social site, where someone saw a plane coming down and assumed it must have been a military plane shut down by their side - and promoted it as such.
- hga 12y ago
  EDITED: per Wikipedia it's more complicated (see ADDED below), assuming as speculated elsewhere in this thread that they used visual means for air search, or I would note another albeit unlinked radar system: "The Buk missile system was designed to surpass the 2K12 Kub in all parameters and its designers including its chief designer Ardalion Rastov visited Egypt in 1971 to see Kub [SA-6, very effective in the Kom Kippur War 2 years later] in operation. Both the Kub and Buk used self-propelled launchers developed by Ardalion Rastov. As a result of this visit the developers came to the conclusion that each Buk transporter erector launcher (TEL) should have its own fire control radar rather than being reliant on one central radar for the whole system as in Kub. The result of this move from TEL to transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) was a system able to engage multiple targets from multiple directions at the same time." If they have a vector to feed the fire control radar, and it then succeeds in acquiring the target, I would expect it to work. Our anti-radiation missiles, plus the system's missiles until the most recent one having semi-active homing (fire control radar must paint the target), put a premium on this sort of arrangement. ADDED: I too am just learning these fine details; further down, as quoted by powertower in reply to this posting, the above ideal wasn't implemented in full, there's a normal 2-1 ratio of TELARs to TELs. And think about the implications of the TELARs being obviously more expensive: the normal ratio is unlikely to be always observed, the maintenance demands of TELARs and a high TELAR to TEL ratio is going to be higher, etc. etc.

ogig 12y ago

grasswire link has some explicit images, be warned.

austenallred 12y ago
Thank you for that; have been meaning to add an "explicit" warning for weeks.

shitgoose 12y ago

Could you provide the link to original "rebel leader’s VKontakte (Facebook) post"?

austenallred 12y ago
VKontakte doesn't have a very good "share this specific link feature" - but here it is, probably a couple down now. http://vk.com/strelkov_info http://vk.com/strelkov_info
- shitgoose 12y ago
  I couldn't find the source for the second part of your translation - "we warned them ...". Has it been removed? I am curious to see if AN-26 was also shot down, or they mistook Boeing for AN-26. EDIT: got the answer in this thread - post was deleted.
- xentronium 12y ago
  It does have that feature (hover over post date).
yread 12y ago
It used to be here http://vk.com/wall-57424472_7256 http://vk.com/wall-57424472_7256 now it's gone http://i.imgur.com/VmwbElq.png http://i.imgur.com/VmwbElq.png oh and here is them bragging that they've captured Buk http://oi58.tinypic.com/29gmnah.jpg http://oi58.tinypic.com/29gmnah.jpg I think it's pretty clear EDIT: there is another image of it https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bswy4VtCUAAJCDS.jpg:orig https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bswy4VtCUAAJCDS.jpg:orig Worse still it is stationed between houses using their own people as human shields

Alupis 12y ago

Why was this civilian plane over Ukraine to begin with? I seem to recall (can't find the link now) that Ukraine declared their airspace closed to civilian aircraft after the Ukrainian Troop Transport plane was shot down recently. Even if the airspace was open, it seems highly risky to fly over a battle-zone anyhow where direct radio communication with troops on the ground may not be possible, and opens a wide door for an accidental grounding, if not on purpose.

austenallred 12y ago
The rebel army (there isn't really any government to "declare" anything in eastern Ukraine right now) warned that it was a no-fly zone, but Malaysian probably assumed they were referring to the Ukrainian air force, which had been shelling eastern Ukraine fairly heavily. A recent FAA notice warned of the potential of misidentification of civilian aircraft over eastern Ukraine, but surely nobody thought they would shoot a civilian aircraft out of the sky. That being said, touching eastern Ukraine with a 30,000 ft. pole would probably be less than wise at the moment.
- Alupis 12y ago
  > A recent FAA notice warned of the potential of misidentification of civilian aircraft over eastern Ukraine, but surely nobody thought they would shoot a civilian aircraft out of the sky. Yes, but without any direct communication, no organized Air Traffic Control, and without tracking satellites, it seems very easy for ground troops to mistake a civilian transport with a military transport. Seems ludicrous for anyone to attempt to fly over Ukraine right now.
  - TheAnimus 12y ago
    >Yes, but without any direct communication, no organized Air Traffic Control, and without tracking satellites, it seems very easy for ground troops to mistake a civilian transport with a military transport. Except for the transponder...
    - 12y ago

grey-area 12y ago

Interesting, the google cache of that post still works: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fvk.com%2Fwall-57424472_7256 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache%3... and the google translation is as follows: Message from the militia. "In the area Torrez just downed plane An-26, lying somewhere in the mine" Progress ". Warned same - not to fly in "our sky." And here is the video the confirmation of the next "ptichkopada." Birdie fell for waste heap, the residential sector is not caught. Peaceful people do not suffer. And also have information about the second downed aircraft, like the Su. " even though the original post has been deleted from VK http://vk.com/wall-57424472_7256 http://vk.com/wall-57424472_7256

TheAnimus 12y ago
This is very worrying, an AN-26 does not have the service ceiling of what I would expect the MH flight to be travelling at. A trip seven would be about 2500m higher.
- vonmoltke 12y ago
  Its also smaller. However, if they identified the target and aimed the missile visually, its possible that they mistook a 777@10000m for an An-26@7500m. I doubt the rebels have much in the way of air search radar. If this was a rebel misidentification, what probably happened is that they fired the missile line-of-sight with the seeker active.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]

hackplus 12y ago

Is grasswire your startup? What does it do?

austenallred 12y ago
Yes. It's a platform that lets everyone curate and fact-check news in real-time.

powertower 12y ago

> The Ukraine Defense Ministries claim it was shot down by a BUK missile, which the separatists do have, and it would reach. Unless I'm mistaken from the description, it takes 3 vehicles, each serving a separate purpose, to utilize the BUK missile system - with a complex series of operations and coordination between all the components (that can only be done by trained operators). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-missile/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/malaysia-airlines... The evidence against the anti-Kiev militia seems to only show the missile vehicle component. And it's unknown if it was even fully operational (aside from being drive-able on the roads). > We also have this interesting translation of Ukraine rebel leader’s VKontakte (Facebook) post regarding another downed airplane If my understanding is correct (from his other posts), the original info/report came from a post on their social site, where someone saw a plane coming down and assumed it must have been a military plane shut down by their side - and promoted it as such.

hga 12y ago
EDITED: per Wikipedia it's more complicated (see ADDED below), assuming as speculated elsewhere in this thread that they used visual means for air search, or I would note another albeit unlinked radar system: "The Buk missile system was designed to surpass the 2K12 Kub in all parameters and its designers including its chief designer Ardalion Rastov visited Egypt in 1971 to see Kub [SA-6, very effective in the Kom Kippur War 2 years later] in operation. Both the Kub and Buk used self-propelled launchers developed by Ardalion Rastov. As a result of this visit the developers came to the conclusion that each Buk transporter erector launcher (TEL) should have its own fire control radar rather than being reliant on one central radar for the whole system as in Kub. The result of this move from TEL to transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) was a system able to engage multiple targets from multiple directions at the same time." If they have a vector to feed the fire control radar, and it then succeeds in acquiring the target, I would expect it to work. Our anti-radiation missiles, plus the system's missiles until the most recent one having semi-active homing (fire control radar must paint the target), put a premium on this sort of arrangement. ADDED: I too am just learning these fine details; further down, as quoted by powertower in reply to this posting, the above ideal wasn't implemented in full, there's a normal 2-1 ratio of TELARs to TELs. And think about the implications of the TELARs being obviously more expensive: the normal ratio is unlikely to be always observed, the maintenance demands of TELARs and a high TELAR to TEL ratio is going to be higher, etc. etc.