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Some interesting info on the speculation it was shot down: A defence expert has told the BBC that shooting down a plane at 10,000m (9.7 miles) would have requi

Some interesting info on the speculation it was shot down: A defence expert has told the BBC that shooting down a plane at 10,000m (9.7 miles) would have required a long- range surface-to-air missile - possibly guided by radar. That suggests it is unlikely it could have been downed by a portable air defence missile, or Manpad, which has a much shorter range. The only other possibility is for an aircraft at that height to be downed by a fighter carrying air-to-air missiles. The US will have access to satellite imagery that should be able to identify ultra-violet plumes if a long-range surface-to-air missile was fired. Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28354856 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28354856 Edit: Amateur video reportedly showing aftermath of the crash (from a distance): http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-crashes-ukraine-video http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/17/malaysia-...

toomuchtodo 12y ago
Flight track: https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/489795658879348737/photo/1 https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/489795658879348737/...
atwebb 12y ago
I know it's early but Sky is reporting that Ukraine confirms it was an attack: https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/489796240163745793 https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/489796240163745793
- pdabbadabba 12y ago
  Ukrainian officials may have said as much -- and they may be right -- but given Ukraine's obvious interest in this situation, it may be a stretch to say that they are capable, on their own, of "confirming" anything about it.
  - atwebb 12y ago
    Definitely a valid point and all early information should be taken very cautiously.
smoorman1024 12y ago
Alternate speculation http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/ http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-tak... Air-To-Air Missile seems highly unlikely. Rumors abound that Militia groups were bragging about downing a Ukrainian Transport http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017 http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017 Take everything with a grain of salt!
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  >Take everything with a grain of salt! That's rich coming from the guy linking to Russian state controlled media.
  - smoorman1024 12y ago
    Indeed I realize that this is Russia Media. I've been monitoring information as it goes by on twitter trying to make the best sense I can of the situation. This report is dated June 29 which is interesting.
  - mikeash 12y ago
    Not so much "rich" as "completely reasonable and expected". Isn't linking to a biased source exactly when you should be saying that?
    - smoorman1024 12y ago
      Indeed. I was downvoted for bringing this source to the conversation. I don't see how it's not highly relevant to the conversation. I urge everyone to read all reports though with a grain of salt and read reports from all sides.
  - darthgoogle 12y ago
    What media isn't state controlled, whether overtly or covertly? When was the last time you read anything positive about Russia in the Western press? Maybe since the day you were born you've been conditioned to have a Pavlovian reaction to Russia?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- rev_bird 12y ago
  >other ?
- Someone1234 12y ago
  They said "other possibility" because their first suspect was something like a SAM (i.e. long range surface to air missile). So your reply is quite confusing. Did you misread the above post?
dragonwriter 12y ago
> A defence expert has told the BBC that shooting down a plane at 10,000m (9.7 miles) First off, 10,000m is 6.2 miles, not 9.7 miles.
- philip1209 12y ago
  Perhaps the defence expert was misintrepreted - If the plane is 6.2 miles on the ground away and flying at 30K feet (5.7 miles), then basic pythagorean geometry says that a missile has to travel sqrt(6.2^2+5.7^2) = 8.4 miles, which is closer to the number they give?
  - jahewson 12y ago
    No, 10,000m is the altitude of the plane, i.e. 33,000ft or 6.2 miles.
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
There have been reports of this bad boy deployed in Russian controlled areas of Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system This could take out a 777 trivially either. I wouldn't put it past Putin to give control of this to his proxy soldiers or fuck up trying to shoot down what they detected as a Uke fighter or cargo jet. This is the system the Uke military has been blaming on shooting down their jets.
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  I also heard a report that rebels were reported to have access to a BUK.
  - darthgoogle 12y ago
    The rebels respond: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-disappears-over-ukraine-feared-shot-down-by-missile/2014/07/17/0fffe1e6-0dcb-11e4-8341-b8072b1e7348_story.html?hpid=z1 http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/malaysia-airlines... >“The plane was shot down by the Ukrainian side,” said Serhiy Kavtaradze, a member of the rebels’ security council, according to the Russia’s Interfax news agency. “We simply do not have such air defense systems.” He said rebels’ shoulder-launched antiaircraft missiles “have a firing range of only 3,000 to 4,000 meters” and that passenger jets fly at much higher altitudes. He denied that the rebels possess the SA-17 Buk air-defense as Kiev alleges."
    - john_b 12y ago
      Apparently a rebel leader was bragging about having captured a Buk, but the post has now been deleted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8048729https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8048729 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8048729https://news.yco...
- darthgoogle 12y ago
  Why so quick to blame the Russians? Would you not put it past the Ukraine backed neo-nazis, which even the state-funded BBC now admit exist, trying to widen the conflict and drag third parties into the fight? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329
downandout 12y ago
Ukraine interior minister confirms plane shot down, but claim they didn't pull the trigger. They believe it was Russian separatists.
Alupis 12y ago
Just curious why the US would play any role in this situation... it's a Malaysian plane, over Ukraine, coming from the EU. Seems like the EU should be tasking their satellite's, or even Russia.
- cyorir 12y ago
  It's important to have as many sides involved as possible - I wouldn't trust US satellites alone or Russian satellites alone, but I would trust all satellites together. Russia, US, and EU could all try to spin this story in their own ways.
  - Alupis 12y ago
    Probably a fair assessment. The EU, Russian, and especially the US spin machines have been in full swing for the past few months.
    - easytiger 12y ago
      On this topic on rt.com: > 16:05 GMT: > The Donetsk People’s Republic – where heavy fighting continues between Kiev and opposition – has denied reports in the Western media which claim that the Malaysian plane was shot down. http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/ http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/ Not seen that claim reported elsewhere. Lets see what happens.
- tom_scrace 12y ago
  Probably because the US has by far the most extensive surveillance satellite programme in the world. Not many countries operate surveillance sats at all. France has a few. Israel and Japan have some. I know Britain has none at all and has a deal with the US to access its material.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- metric10 12y ago
  The plane was manufactured by Boeing, a US company. See http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/foreign.aspx http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/foreign.aspx
austenallred 12y ago
Our startup lets you track the event in real-time, and has thousands of people actively confirming and refuting content as to its validity. There is a lot of fake info floating around on Twitter (and even some mainstream media organizations), so act with caution. http://grasswire.com/#/newsfeeds/1e4b388a-8ea7-461d-8acf-ba171941eb12 http://grasswire.com/#/newsfeeds/1e4b388a-8ea7-461d-8acf-ba1... Confirmed: Malaysia Airlines confirms it has lost contact with #MH17 from Amsterdam. Last known position over Ukraine. Was shot down, all passengers dead. The pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine deny shooting it down, and are blaming the Ukrainian armed forces. The Ukraine Defense Ministries claim it was shot down by a BUK missile, which the separatists do have, and it would reach. We also have this interesting translation of Ukraine rebel leader’s VKontakte (Facebook) post regarding another downed airplane: http://pastie.org/9400258 http://pastie.org/9400258. (I translated it, so forgive me for any inaccuracy).
- ogig 12y ago
  grasswire link has some explicit images, be warned.
  - austenallred 12y ago
    Thank you for that; have been meaning to add an "explicit" warning for weeks.
- shitgoose 12y ago
  Could you provide the link to original "rebel leader’s VKontakte (Facebook) post"?
  - austenallred 12y ago
    VKontakte doesn't have a very good "share this specific link feature" - but here it is, probably a couple down now. http://vk.com/strelkov_info http://vk.com/strelkov_info
    - shitgoose 12y ago
nicolly 12y ago
Spanish air controller, “Kiev downed Malaysian Boeing #MH17” http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/ http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-cont... @spainbuca Twitter account "disappeared". Google cached version of the account: http://goo.gl/CnuDCC http://goo.gl/CnuDCC

toomuchtodo 12y ago

Flight track: https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/489795658879348737/photo/1 https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/489795658879348737/...

atwebb 12y ago

I know it's early but Sky is reporting that Ukraine confirms it was an attack: https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/489796240163745793 https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/489796240163745793

pdabbadabba 12y ago
Ukrainian officials may have said as much -- and they may be right -- but given Ukraine's obvious interest in this situation, it may be a stretch to say that they are capable, on their own, of "confirming" anything about it.
- atwebb 12y ago
  Definitely a valid point and all early information should be taken very cautiously.

smoorman1024 12y ago

Alternate speculation http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/ http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-tak... Air-To-Air Missile seems highly unlikely. Rumors abound that Militia groups were bragging about downing a Ukrainian Transport http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017 http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017 Take everything with a grain of salt!

drzaiusapelord 12y ago
>Take everything with a grain of salt! That's rich coming from the guy linking to Russian state controlled media.
- smoorman1024 12y ago
  Indeed I realize that this is Russia Media. I've been monitoring information as it goes by on twitter trying to make the best sense I can of the situation. This report is dated June 29 which is interesting.
- mikeash 12y ago
  Not so much "rich" as "completely reasonable and expected". Isn't linking to a biased source exactly when you should be saying that?
  - smoorman1024 12y ago
    Indeed. I was downvoted for bringing this source to the conversation. I don't see how it's not highly relevant to the conversation. I urge everyone to read all reports though with a grain of salt and read reports from all sides.
- darthgoogle 12y ago
  What media isn't state controlled, whether overtly or covertly? When was the last time you read anything positive about Russia in the Western press? Maybe since the day you were born you've been conditioned to have a Pavlovian reaction to Russia?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

rev_bird 12y ago
>other ?
Someone1234 12y ago
They said "other possibility" because their first suspect was something like a SAM (i.e. long range surface to air missile). So your reply is quite confusing. Did you misread the above post?

dragonwriter 12y ago

> A defence expert has told the BBC that shooting down a plane at 10,000m (9.7 miles) First off, 10,000m is 6.2 miles, not 9.7 miles.

philip1209 12y ago
Perhaps the defence expert was misintrepreted - If the plane is 6.2 miles on the ground away and flying at 30K feet (5.7 miles), then basic pythagorean geometry says that a missile has to travel sqrt(6.2^2+5.7^2) = 8.4 miles, which is closer to the number they give?
- jahewson 12y ago
  No, 10,000m is the altitude of the plane, i.e. 33,000ft or 6.2 miles.

drzaiusapelord 12y ago

There have been reports of this bad boy deployed in Russian controlled areas of Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system This could take out a 777 trivially either. I wouldn't put it past Putin to give control of this to his proxy soldiers or fuck up trying to shoot down what they detected as a Uke fighter or cargo jet. This is the system the Uke military has been blaming on shooting down their jets.

k-mcgrady 12y ago
I also heard a report that rebels were reported to have access to a BUK.
- darthgoogle 12y ago
  The rebels respond: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-disappears-over-ukraine-feared-shot-down-by-missile/2014/07/17/0fffe1e6-0dcb-11e4-8341-b8072b1e7348_story.html?hpid=z1 http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/malaysia-airlines... >“The plane was shot down by the Ukrainian side,” said Serhiy Kavtaradze, a member of the rebels’ security council, according to the Russia’s Interfax news agency. “We simply do not have such air defense systems.” He said rebels’ shoulder-launched antiaircraft missiles “have a firing range of only 3,000 to 4,000 meters” and that passenger jets fly at much higher altitudes. He denied that the rebels possess the SA-17 Buk air-defense as Kiev alleges."
  - john_b 12y ago
    Apparently a rebel leader was bragging about having captured a Buk, but the post has now been deleted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8048729https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8048729 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8048729https://news.yco...
darthgoogle 12y ago
Why so quick to blame the Russians? Would you not put it past the Ukraine backed neo-nazis, which even the state-funded BBC now admit exist, trying to widen the conflict and drag third parties into the fight? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329

downandout 12y ago

Ukraine interior minister confirms plane shot down, but claim they didn't pull the trigger. They believe it was Russian separatists.

Alupis 12y ago

Just curious why the US would play any role in this situation... it's a Malaysian plane, over Ukraine, coming from the EU. Seems like the EU should be tasking their satellite's, or even Russia.

cyorir 12y ago
It's important to have as many sides involved as possible - I wouldn't trust US satellites alone or Russian satellites alone, but I would trust all satellites together. Russia, US, and EU could all try to spin this story in their own ways.
- Alupis 12y ago
  Probably a fair assessment. The EU, Russian, and especially the US spin machines have been in full swing for the past few months.
  - easytiger 12y ago
    On this topic on rt.com: > 16:05 GMT: > The Donetsk People’s Republic – where heavy fighting continues between Kiev and opposition – has denied reports in the Western media which claim that the Malaysian plane was shot down. http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/ http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/ Not seen that claim reported elsewhere. Lets see what happens.
tom_scrace 12y ago
Probably because the US has by far the most extensive surveillance satellite programme in the world. Not many countries operate surveillance sats at all. France has a few. Israel and Japan have some. I know Britain has none at all and has a deal with the US to access its material.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
metric10 12y ago
The plane was manufactured by Boeing, a US company. See http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/foreign.aspx http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/foreign.aspx

austenallred 12y ago

Our startup lets you track the event in real-time, and has thousands of people actively confirming and refuting content as to its validity. There is a lot of fake info floating around on Twitter (and even some mainstream media organizations), so act with caution. http://grasswire.com/#/newsfeeds/1e4b388a-8ea7-461d-8acf-ba171941eb12 http://grasswire.com/#/newsfeeds/1e4b388a-8ea7-461d-8acf-ba1... Confirmed: Malaysia Airlines confirms it has lost contact with #MH17 from Amsterdam. Last known position over Ukraine. Was shot down, all passengers dead. The pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine deny shooting it down, and are blaming the Ukrainian armed forces. The Ukraine Defense Ministries claim it was shot down by a BUK missile, which the separatists do have, and it would reach. We also have this interesting translation of Ukraine rebel leader’s VKontakte (Facebook) post regarding another downed airplane: http://pastie.org/9400258 http://pastie.org/9400258. (I translated it, so forgive me for any inaccuracy).

ogig 12y ago
grasswire link has some explicit images, be warned.
- austenallred 12y ago
  Thank you for that; have been meaning to add an "explicit" warning for weeks.
shitgoose 12y ago
Could you provide the link to original "rebel leader’s VKontakte (Facebook) post"?
- austenallred 12y ago
  VKontakte doesn't have a very good "share this specific link feature" - but here it is, probably a couple down now. http://vk.com/strelkov_info http://vk.com/strelkov_info
  - shitgoose 12y ago

nicolly 12y ago

Spanish air controller, “Kiev downed Malaysian Boeing #MH17” http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/ http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-cont... @spainbuca Twitter account "disappeared". Google cached version of the account: http://goo.gl/CnuDCC http://goo.gl/CnuDCC