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I have a hard time swallowing police department rhetoric in these situations. The officer has a gun, and the unfortunate power to make "extra-legal" killings wi

I have a hard time swallowing police department rhetoric in these situations. The officer has a gun, and the unfortunate power to make "extra-legal" killings with it. They're safe. If they irresponsibly use that gun in an unsafe manner, like all the drunken NYPD officers who shoot people[0], then it absolutely is our or someone's responsibility to take matters into our own hands and monitor ourselves until we see that accountability. Relying on internal affairs/review commissions to provide that is a broken model. Also, I know folks doing this locally, and have watched officers request that filmers stand at a safe distance. It's interesting to me how often "safe distance" corresponds with a) somewhere with a shitty view far away and b) a position where the filmer is significantly further away than a number of pedestrians or gawkers whose "safety" presumably isn't in dispute. I have good friends who were arrested for nothing more than filming, and they were often given confusing and contradictory orders by an officer who obviously felt he had the immediate situation well enough in hand to direct most of his attention ordering the filmer around. It happened almost 2 years ago, no charges were filed, and if this was a legitimate concern then I'd really like to see some obstruction charges brought in the several local cases I've seen of citizens arrested for filming. I do agree that some of these groups' strategies are a bit busted. I'm familiar with the Peaceful Streets Project here in Austin, and sometimes the ragey/personal rhetoric got a bit overpowering. Then again, cops kill people, often under suspicious circumstances, and get away with it. Perhaps it is time for a bit of rage, and to make it personal. 0. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/01/brendan-conin-nypd-shooting-pelham-drunk_n_5247504.htm http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/01/brendan-conin-nypd-...

davidw 12y ago
> I have a hard time swallowing police department rhetoric in these situations. The officer has a gun, and the unfortunate power to make "extra-legal" killings with it. They're safe. Suppose that atleast a few of the police are not the bloodthirsty crazies depicted on reddit, and actually have the best interests of their fellow citizens in mind. You might also suppose that even those people might get paranoid about some guy following them around in a car and pointing stuff at them, because merely having a gun and the ability to use it doesn't automatically make you 'safe'. Putting two and two together, you'd conclude that this article has nothing to do with hacker news and flag it. You folks can downvote all you want, but it doesn't change anything. I value a hacker news free of politics and current events far more than I value 'karma' points.
- ndarilek 12y ago
  Then you might suppose those good cops might stand up when one of their buddy bad cops kills unarmed people or does something equally wrong. And you might suppose that, while silence doesn't imply consent, that maybe it implies something a bit more serious in a profession where people can kill with impunity and get put on paid leave while the situation is sorted out. You might suppose that maybe those good cops should publicly speak out when their departments do something bad. If they don't, you might suppose that their primary interest is in saving their jobs, our lives be damned.
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  Hacker News is a bag full of stupid on political topics.
  - awj 12y ago
    ...what else do you expect? HN is full of young idealists convinced they both understand and can change the world. In the realm of computer software where most have spent their lives, they could be right. In other areas ... not so much. It's incredibly difficult to fix what you don't understand, and most of the world doesn't understand politics. Especially young people. Most especially young people who have dedicated all their time and energy to something that isn't politics.
netcan 12y ago
I don't think reality is as clear cut as that. There is genuine complexity. Being a cop is legitimately dangerous, gun or no gun. A gun isn't an off switch. People can confront an armed cop and shooting doesn't always stop them. There are also all sorts of rules that are learned on the job and aren't not in any manual. Ways for maintaining control and authority mostly. Many of these practices are unsanctioned and unofficial, but still essential for being able to do the job. Some things are both crucial and illegal. Cops usually feel like when they get busted for being arrogant, bullying or outright violence that they are are victims of these situations. They do what everyone does, what has to be done for policing to be viable. Those pencil pushers with their removed perspective are making judgments about their irrelevant rules being broken. They are under stress. Violence is a part of their days. Most of the people they deal with are lowlifes, lyres, cheaters. There is real stress. Real danger That said, a lot of these practices aren't benign and they aren't inevitable. The police does genuinely attract many problematic people and it makes other. They get used to defending their authority and meet challenges to it with extreme responses. They develop a cops & robbers, us & them worldview that becomes their reality. More specifically cops, criminals and naive spectators, citizens & bureaucrats. They develop a bullying mannerism. Police manage to do their jobs without guns at all in many places. They deal with violent crime just like cops in the states. I'm not saying this should be adopted by US department, but is proof that there are other ways of doing things. I think lights good for the paradigm. But, whatever that light reveals needs to be dealt with. Maybe police modus operandi needs to changed. But, maybe the rulebook needs to change too. It can be dangerous trying to enforce the official rulebook after long periods where it has only been enforced selectively. Maybe the official way of doing things doesn't work. That said, this following cops around only plays to the problem paradigm. It's harassment, like what paparazzi do. It's belligerent. Maybe it's valuable as a protest, but it isn't as solution. What I think should happen in law enforcement is that everything should be recorded. Every interrogation. Every arrest. Every time a cop pulls you over. This is all evidence and it should be part of every booking. Hopefully that will make the need for this sort of thing go away.
- coder23 12y ago
  What I think should happen in law enforcement is that everything should be recorded. We can expect that pretty soon with storage and chips becoming ever smaller. 10-15 years perhaps?

davidw 12y ago

> I have a hard time swallowing police department rhetoric in these situations. The officer has a gun, and the unfortunate power to make "extra-legal" killings with it. They're safe. Suppose that atleast a few of the police are not the bloodthirsty crazies depicted on reddit, and actually have the best interests of their fellow citizens in mind. You might also suppose that even those people might get paranoid about some guy following them around in a car and pointing stuff at them, because merely having a gun and the ability to use it doesn't automatically make you 'safe'. Putting two and two together, you'd conclude that this article has nothing to do with hacker news and flag it. You folks can downvote all you want, but it doesn't change anything. I value a hacker news free of politics and current events far more than I value 'karma' points.

ndarilek 12y ago
Then you might suppose those good cops might stand up when one of their buddy bad cops kills unarmed people or does something equally wrong. And you might suppose that, while silence doesn't imply consent, that maybe it implies something a bit more serious in a profession where people can kill with impunity and get put on paid leave while the situation is sorted out. You might suppose that maybe those good cops should publicly speak out when their departments do something bad. If they don't, you might suppose that their primary interest is in saving their jobs, our lives be damned.
happyscrappy 12y ago
Hacker News is a bag full of stupid on political topics.
- awj 12y ago
  ...what else do you expect? HN is full of young idealists convinced they both understand and can change the world. In the realm of computer software where most have spent their lives, they could be right. In other areas ... not so much. It's incredibly difficult to fix what you don't understand, and most of the world doesn't understand politics. Especially young people. Most especially young people who have dedicated all their time and energy to something that isn't politics.

netcan 12y ago

I don't think reality is as clear cut as that. There is genuine complexity. Being a cop is legitimately dangerous, gun or no gun. A gun isn't an off switch. People can confront an armed cop and shooting doesn't always stop them. There are also all sorts of rules that are learned on the job and aren't not in any manual. Ways for maintaining control and authority mostly. Many of these practices are unsanctioned and unofficial, but still essential for being able to do the job. Some things are both crucial and illegal. Cops usually feel like when they get busted for being arrogant, bullying or outright violence that they are are victims of these situations. They do what everyone does, what has to be done for policing to be viable. Those pencil pushers with their removed perspective are making judgments about their irrelevant rules being broken. They are under stress. Violence is a part of their days. Most of the people they deal with are lowlifes, lyres, cheaters. There is real stress. Real danger That said, a lot of these practices aren't benign and they aren't inevitable. The police does genuinely attract many problematic people and it makes other. They get used to defending their authority and meet challenges to it with extreme responses. They develop a cops & robbers, us & them worldview that becomes their reality. More specifically cops, criminals and naive spectators, citizens & bureaucrats. They develop a bullying mannerism. Police manage to do their jobs without guns at all in many places. They deal with violent crime just like cops in the states. I'm not saying this should be adopted by US department, but is proof that there are other ways of doing things. I think lights good for the paradigm. But, whatever that light reveals needs to be dealt with. Maybe police modus operandi needs to changed. But, maybe the rulebook needs to change too. It can be dangerous trying to enforce the official rulebook after long periods where it has only been enforced selectively. Maybe the official way of doing things doesn't work. That said, this following cops around only plays to the problem paradigm. It's harassment, like what paparazzi do. It's belligerent. Maybe it's valuable as a protest, but it isn't as solution. What I think should happen in law enforcement is that everything should be recorded. Every interrogation. Every arrest. Every time a cop pulls you over. This is all evidence and it should be part of every booking. Hopefully that will make the need for this sort of thing go away.

coder23 12y ago
What I think should happen in law enforcement is that everything should be recorded. We can expect that pretty soon with storage and chips becoming ever smaller. 10-15 years perhaps?