7 ms·

This is probably one of my absolute favorite comments I've read on Hacker News. I think the scary part is that we have some mild but very real examples of thes

by SeoxyS 12y ago

This is probably one of my absolute favorite comments I've read on Hacker News. I think the scary part is that we have some mild but very real examples of these two dystopian visions in the world today. There are many Orwellian-ish regimes (e.g. North Korea, or to a very small extent the UK and its constant surveillance). But as can be seen, oftentimes this leads to a revolution and the regime falls. But on the other hand, much of the western world today is more akin to Huxley's dystopia. American culture and society today is a fantastic example of being drowned in indulgence and stupidity, and being controlled by it. Just watch the constant pointless bickering on cable news for an example of this. This kind of dystopia is much much harder to escape. There's nothing really to revolt against, because our stupidity & indulgence is our own captor. Now, of course, both of these dystopian visions are extremes, and the real world is much more nuanced. But that's the purpose of literature; to make a caricature that we can use to more clearly see patterns in the real world.

dsirijus 12y ago
One of my favorites too, even though I disagree with seeing both Orwell's and Huxley's visions of future as some kind of dead end. It's hard for me to imagine something like that lasting for more than 2 generations. Quite contrary, I'm seeing it as a possible catalyst for radical change to something quite positive.
- cconcepts 12y ago
  Interesting point. Huxley's vision of the future would become a dead end when another entity sees our pleasure-induced ineptitude as their opportunity to pounce
- aaronem 12y ago
  Agreed; O'Brien's boot metaphor was purest hubris. I don't know if I'd call civilizational collapse "positive", though. Surely things will get better afterward! Things always do, eventually. But, judging by history, we'll be in for a rather ugly interregnum in the meantime, one marked by the sway of Hobbes's dictum ("...nasty, brutish, and short"), by constant insufficiency in all the material necessities of life, and by all manner of short-lived but violent popular enthusiasms; in general, a world fit only for those young enough to love chaos, and one harsh even for them. I don't fear for the species; we're tough bastards and can survive anything short of heat death. But I would like to think that some day we'll work out the trick of anakyklosis and finally have done with dark ages.
  - eropple 12y ago
    > O'Brien's boot metaphor was purest hubris It's quite possible Orwell agreed with you there. One thing not everyone notices is that the Newspeak appendix to 1984 is written in the past tense.
cconcepts 12y ago
I would say it's not necessarily our stupidity that is our captor, but our self indulgence. Personally, my waistline seems to be expanding - this is not (necessarily) because I'm stupid, but more likely to do with the fact that I like bacon so darn much that I refuse to give it up.
- SeoxyS 12y ago
  You're right, I agree. It's a combination of indulgence, narcissism, and stupidity; different people may fall more into some of these than others. And luckily for us, we have a lot of smart people who think different, so I don't think we're doomed either.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- aaronem 12y ago
  If my experience (which includes shedding thirty pounds in the last month and a half) is any guide, the trick is not to swear off bacon entirely; indeed, try to do that and you're just setting yourself up for a discipline-vitiating failure, as I'm sure you have discovered. Quick fixes don't work. What works is making smaller changes pervasively, in an incremental fashion. Trying to fix everything all at once, by dint of flailing, unsustainable effort, guarantees that you will fail, and end up feeling worse about yourself. Identifying one practicable improvement at a time, and making a solid habit of it before you go on to the next, is the way to a sustainably healthier life. For example: Weight loss depends on burning more calories than you take in. I started by investing in a Basis band, and spent a week both building the habit of wearing it and getting baseline data on how many calories I burn in a day. Then I started changing my relationship with food; where before I would eat to repletion at every meal, I instead now eat only enough to quell the pangs of hunger somewhat, and a healthier diet besides. Once I had that pretty well in hand, I started logging everything I eat and counting calories, which has two benefits: since I'm writing everything down, there's a permanent record when I cheat, and the calorie log quantifies the daily difference between calories in and calories out. (Lately I'm running at a deficit of ca. 1500/day, which probably sounds agonizing -- but, having built the habits I describe, it's actually quite sustainable.) Then I started logging my daily weight, too. That helps quantify the improvement I'm making, and also makes it easier to identify particularly effective or ineffective behaviors -- for example, I'm planning to add a weekly fasting day to my routine, and without the weight data, I'd have no way to tell whether doing so is worthwhile. (And it is powerfully motivating to chart weight over date and see that line sloping down!) Then I bought a bike and added it to my daily routine. Time was, when I needed a pack of smokes or a couple cans of cat food, I'd get in my car and burn gas to go get them. Now I get on my bike and burn calories instead -- and it's not just cardio, either; every hill I go up strengthens my thigh muscles, and Baltimore is a hilly town. The Basis band logs my rides for me, but I'd do so by hand if I needed to. Then I started doing a few sit-ups in the morning and a few more in the evening, and a few push-ups as well, so as not to neglect my arm or abdominal muscles. I log these, too, in order to keep track of what I've done or haven't; I haven't done much with that data yet, but it'll be handy when the time comes, fifty pounds or so hence, to change focus from losing weight per se, to maintaining fitness while building lean muscle. Looking over all I've just written, I probably come off slightly nutty on the subject, I think. But the point is precisely that I'm not, nor need I be; by focusing on one thing at a time, and establishing it as a habit before going on to the next, I've been able to make my life healthier in a durable and effective way, without at any point inflicting on myself the need for superhuman reserves of self-discipline. It's not that I don't indulge, either! I eat bacon and barbecue and everything else I love. But I don't do that every day, or even most days, but rather maybe once in a couple of weeks -- and that way, not only do I lose weight at a steady clip, but when I do indulge, it's a real treat, more enjoyable by its very rarity than if I ate more sumptuously every day. If you're inclined to improve your own waistline, I hope my experience is of use to you. Good luck!
maskedinvader 12y ago
very well written and in my opinion a very fair comment to make. This is what brings me to HN, quality of the discussion is much better than any other place.

by SeoxyS 12y ago

dsirijus 12y ago

One of my favorites too, even though I disagree with seeing both Orwell's and Huxley's visions of future as some kind of dead end. It's hard for me to imagine something like that lasting for more than 2 generations. Quite contrary, I'm seeing it as a possible catalyst for radical change to something quite positive.

cconcepts 12y ago
Interesting point. Huxley's vision of the future would become a dead end when another entity sees our pleasure-induced ineptitude as their opportunity to pounce
aaronem 12y ago
Agreed; O'Brien's boot metaphor was purest hubris. I don't know if I'd call civilizational collapse "positive", though. Surely things will get better afterward! Things always do, eventually. But, judging by history, we'll be in for a rather ugly interregnum in the meantime, one marked by the sway of Hobbes's dictum ("...nasty, brutish, and short"), by constant insufficiency in all the material necessities of life, and by all manner of short-lived but violent popular enthusiasms; in general, a world fit only for those young enough to love chaos, and one harsh even for them. I don't fear for the species; we're tough bastards and can survive anything short of heat death. But I would like to think that some day we'll work out the trick of anakyklosis and finally have done with dark ages.
- eropple 12y ago
  > O'Brien's boot metaphor was purest hubris It's quite possible Orwell agreed with you there. One thing not everyone notices is that the Newspeak appendix to 1984 is written in the past tense.

cconcepts 12y ago

I would say it's not necessarily our stupidity that is our captor, but our self indulgence. Personally, my waistline seems to be expanding - this is not (necessarily) because I'm stupid, but more likely to do with the fact that I like bacon so darn much that I refuse to give it up.

SeoxyS 12y ago
You're right, I agree. It's a combination of indulgence, narcissism, and stupidity; different people may fall more into some of these than others. And luckily for us, we have a lot of smart people who think different, so I don't think we're doomed either.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
aaronem 12y ago
If my experience (which includes shedding thirty pounds in the last month and a half) is any guide, the trick is not to swear off bacon entirely; indeed, try to do that and you're just setting yourself up for a discipline-vitiating failure, as I'm sure you have discovered. Quick fixes don't work. What works is making smaller changes pervasively, in an incremental fashion. Trying to fix everything all at once, by dint of flailing, unsustainable effort, guarantees that you will fail, and end up feeling worse about yourself. Identifying one practicable improvement at a time, and making a solid habit of it before you go on to the next, is the way to a sustainably healthier life. For example: Weight loss depends on burning more calories than you take in. I started by investing in a Basis band, and spent a week both building the habit of wearing it and getting baseline data on how many calories I burn in a day. Then I started changing my relationship with food; where before I would eat to repletion at every meal, I instead now eat only enough to quell the pangs of hunger somewhat, and a healthier diet besides. Once I had that pretty well in hand, I started logging everything I eat and counting calories, which has two benefits: since I'm writing everything down, there's a permanent record when I cheat, and the calorie log quantifies the daily difference between calories in and calories out. (Lately I'm running at a deficit of ca. 1500/day, which probably sounds agonizing -- but, having built the habits I describe, it's actually quite sustainable.) Then I started logging my daily weight, too. That helps quantify the improvement I'm making, and also makes it easier to identify particularly effective or ineffective behaviors -- for example, I'm planning to add a weekly fasting day to my routine, and without the weight data, I'd have no way to tell whether doing so is worthwhile. (And it is powerfully motivating to chart weight over date and see that line sloping down!) Then I bought a bike and added it to my daily routine. Time was, when I needed a pack of smokes or a couple cans of cat food, I'd get in my car and burn gas to go get them. Now I get on my bike and burn calories instead -- and it's not just cardio, either; every hill I go up strengthens my thigh muscles, and Baltimore is a hilly town. The Basis band logs my rides for me, but I'd do so by hand if I needed to. Then I started doing a few sit-ups in the morning and a few more in the evening, and a few push-ups as well, so as not to neglect my arm or abdominal muscles. I log these, too, in order to keep track of what I've done or haven't; I haven't done much with that data yet, but it'll be handy when the time comes, fifty pounds or so hence, to change focus from losing weight per se, to maintaining fitness while building lean muscle. Looking over all I've just written, I probably come off slightly nutty on the subject, I think. But the point is precisely that I'm not, nor need I be; by focusing on one thing at a time, and establishing it as a habit before going on to the next, I've been able to make my life healthier in a durable and effective way, without at any point inflicting on myself the need for superhuman reserves of self-discipline. It's not that I don't indulge, either! I eat bacon and barbecue and everything else I love. But I don't do that every day, or even most days, but rather maybe once in a couple of weeks -- and that way, not only do I lose weight at a steady clip, but when I do indulge, it's a real treat, more enjoyable by its very rarity than if I ate more sumptuously every day. If you're inclined to improve your own waistline, I hope my experience is of use to you. Good luck!

maskedinvader 12y ago

very well written and in my opinion a very fair comment to make. This is what brings me to HN, quality of the discussion is much better than any other place.