5 ms·

I wonder how they'll apply this plan in France, where the spirit of the law is, you may massively fire people only if it's part of "plan social", and the only a

by aragot 12y ago

I wonder how they'll apply this plan in France, where the spirit of the law is, you may massively fire people only if it's part of "plan social", and the only argument is ofthen it's-this-or-we-go-bankrupt. Especially: In those kind of schemes, you must ask who wants to leave, give them a package, avoid those with children, the older ones go last, etc. So I doubt they'd let go of the worst people first.

ryanburk 12y ago
good point. but there is a very small engineering team in france (the remainder of the musiwave acquisition) and the rest is sales and marketing that spans EMEA (europe and middle east). if there are cuts, likely not broadly hit.
abollaert 12y ago
I get what you are saying, but you do make it sound like the (older) people with children are the worst ones, by virtue of having children or being older. Also there is a reason why these measures are in place, being that people with children have more risk (more expenses and responsibility) and are less mobile. And older people typically have a harder time in the job market.
- aragot 12y ago
  That's correct, I didn't mean to talk about who should be fired first. I meant to say that the company doesn't really get to choose who should leave or stay. There are rules so we don't harm the economic tissue when firing people. I'm yet to be convinced of how this economy can thrive in the first place. I'm persuaded most French people work in really Dilbertesque comapnies with unpassionnate workmates because of those rules, which correlates with the fact that French people are the first consumers of anti-depressants in the world [1]. I'm not saying it's linked for everyone. [1] http://www.france24.com/en/20110802-france-world-most-depressed-nation-who-study-research-headlines-antidepressants/ http://www.france24.com/en/20110802-france-world-most-depres...
eps 12y ago
They can always open a new company and hire only those they want from the existing one, can't they?
- aragot 12y ago
  Those games are pretty obvious, and they've often been used. We judge by the spirit of the law more often than in US. I know a company of 5-8000 people who's firing 9 managers per month [1] so they don't fall into the "group layout" category. They have to persuade them with a resignation package. They plan a "plan social" in a few months. Here's documentation about it: [3] It's a job. See this agency, at random: [2]. My godfather was a HR manager specialized in "plans sociaux" (=closing factories when famous tech brands moved to Asia), and his job was pretty much explaining CEO of other continents that they have to put money on the table to be allowed to dump a whole factory, which they couldn't really get, obviously. The mother company has to help refurbish the local economy so workers find new jobs, or hire a job agency to find jobs and prove workers aren't just ditched. When the job is done, he writes the last two resignations: his, and the local director. The length of the process is around 2 years for 500 people. Needless to say, mafia jobs are probably safer. [1] See "New procedures for implementing mass lay-offs" in http://www.proskauer.com/publications/client-alert/new-labor-and-employment-legislation-in-france/ http://www.proskauer.com/publications/client-alert/new-labor... [2] http://www.triplet.com/50-10_employment/50-12_laysoff.asp http://www.triplet.com/50-10_employment/50-12_laysoff.asp [3] http://uk.practicallaw.com/0-503-0054#a362756 http://uk.practicallaw.com/0-503-0054#a362756
  - tomjen3 12y ago
    I always knew France had insane labor laws, but they idea of having to ask permission to close a factory is being insane to me. Also while I doubt I will ever have to, I wouldn't start a business in France under those rules.

by aragot 12y ago

ryanburk 12y ago

good point. but there is a very small engineering team in france (the remainder of the musiwave acquisition) and the rest is sales and marketing that spans EMEA (europe and middle east). if there are cuts, likely not broadly hit.

abollaert 12y ago

I get what you are saying, but you do make it sound like the (older) people with children are the worst ones, by virtue of having children or being older. Also there is a reason why these measures are in place, being that people with children have more risk (more expenses and responsibility) and are less mobile. And older people typically have a harder time in the job market.

aragot 12y ago
That's correct, I didn't mean to talk about who should be fired first. I meant to say that the company doesn't really get to choose who should leave or stay. There are rules so we don't harm the economic tissue when firing people. I'm yet to be convinced of how this economy can thrive in the first place. I'm persuaded most French people work in really Dilbertesque comapnies with unpassionnate workmates because of those rules, which correlates with the fact that French people are the first consumers of anti-depressants in the world [1]. I'm not saying it's linked for everyone. [1] http://www.france24.com/en/20110802-france-world-most-depressed-nation-who-study-research-headlines-antidepressants/ http://www.france24.com/en/20110802-france-world-most-depres...

eps 12y ago

They can always open a new company and hire only those they want from the existing one, can't they?

aragot 12y ago
Those games are pretty obvious, and they've often been used. We judge by the spirit of the law more often than in US. I know a company of 5-8000 people who's firing 9 managers per month [1] so they don't fall into the "group layout" category. They have to persuade them with a resignation package. They plan a "plan social" in a few months. Here's documentation about it: [3] It's a job. See this agency, at random: [2]. My godfather was a HR manager specialized in "plans sociaux" (=closing factories when famous tech brands moved to Asia), and his job was pretty much explaining CEO of other continents that they have to put money on the table to be allowed to dump a whole factory, which they couldn't really get, obviously. The mother company has to help refurbish the local economy so workers find new jobs, or hire a job agency to find jobs and prove workers aren't just ditched. When the job is done, he writes the last two resignations: his, and the local director. The length of the process is around 2 years for 500 people. Needless to say, mafia jobs are probably safer. [1] See "New procedures for implementing mass lay-offs" in http://www.proskauer.com/publications/client-alert/new-labor-and-employment-legislation-in-france/ http://www.proskauer.com/publications/client-alert/new-labor... [2] http://www.triplet.com/50-10_employment/50-12_laysoff.asp http://www.triplet.com/50-10_employment/50-12_laysoff.asp [3] http://uk.practicallaw.com/0-503-0054#a362756 http://uk.practicallaw.com/0-503-0054#a362756
- tomjen3 12y ago
  I always knew France had insane labor laws, but they idea of having to ask permission to close a factory is being insane to me. Also while I doubt I will ever have to, I wouldn't start a business in France under those rules.