6 ms·

Treason? The death penalty.

rmc 12y ago
You know the death penalty is illegal in EU (etc.)? In fact, no EU/Council of Europe country can extradite someone for a crime where death penalty is an option. If the USA were to declare he is wanted only for a crime that carries the death penalty, it would be great for Assange. He could walk around the EU without any risk of extradition.
- vidarh 12y ago
  This would be more convincing if Sweden had not been caught out illegally cooperating with CIA renditions - in one instance handing two Egyptian political asylum seekers over to CIA, knowing they'd be handed over to Mubarak for torture. They insisted it had stopped. Only Wikileaks documents revealed the US ambassador was called in years later because Swedish military intelligence had just caught CIA, assisted by Swedish ground crew, carrying out further illegal rendition flights via Swedish airports. I don't that's a likely scenario for Assange - he's too well known, and Europe and Sweden would "have to" cause a massive stink if he was illegally abducted that way - it'd be a diplomatic nightmare. But in general, if concerned about being handed over to the US, Sweden would be pretty low on the list of countries I'd want to go to.
  - rmc 12y ago
    As opposed to the UK, which is a founding member of NATO and joined the USA in invading Iraq?
rogerhoward 12y ago
Is Australia interested in prosecuting him? I doubt that. Treason is a crime against one's own country; the US cannot try him for treason, nor can Sweden. Let's not exaggerate here.
- tptacek 12y ago
  Actually, while you're right in spirit, I think you're technically wrong: you do not need to be a citizen of the US to be charged with treason. You just need to have betrayed an allegiance to the US. So for instance, resident aliens in the US can technically be charged with treason.
  - deciplex 12y ago
    This is an interesting discussion but ultimately meaningless. You need not be charged with or convicted of anything for US authorities to decide to lock you up indefinitely and to deny habeas corpus, forever. There is absolutely no expectation of due process of law in the US.
    - rogerhoward 12y ago
      There is quite a bit of expectation of due process in general; the exceptions are notable because, well, they are exceptions. I'll grant the case of Guantanamo prisoners as heinous violations of the rule of law, but I consider it a huge stretch to suggest that Assange would - if extradited to the US - face either treason charges (for reasons already discussed) or indefinite detention without due process. Whatever you may think of the US policies of indefinite detention, he doesn't fit the profile for those who would qualify. He would, no doubt, be given a lengthy federal trial, likely found guilty and serve Federal prison time, while receiving moral and legal aid from many corners, particularly organizations concerned with civil rights, whistleblowing, and journalism. His conviction might even be eventually overturned. Indefinite detention works (in that it has not been stopped) because those who are imprisoned without due process have few mainstream defenders - plenty of people object to the methods, but are ho-hum on the actual people involved. Assange's detention without due process would be a political nightmare for the administration at very least.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        Indefinite detention "works" because it's structurally the same process as is used for prisoners of war, and we (in one of the great foreign policy blunders of the century) managed to declare war on a terrorist brand name instead of a state, meaning that we've created a military conflict that won't end --- where the conclusion of a conflict, usually (in the last 2 centuries) within single-digit years, is the normal way you resolve prisoner of war dilemmas. Not that I'd want to suggest that a discussion that starts out with "that's interesting but it doesn't matter because there's no such thing as due process in the US" is going to be productive, but the nature of indefinite detention is, in a positive sense, not a normative one, interesting.
infinotize 12y ago
I think the thing he actually fears is once in Sweden, having the US bring out some espionage charges, and then pressing the Swedish government to extradite him while he is in custody, after the Swedish charges play out.

rmc 12y ago

You know the death penalty is illegal in EU (etc.)? In fact, no EU/Council of Europe country can extradite someone for a crime where death penalty is an option. If the USA were to declare he is wanted only for a crime that carries the death penalty, it would be great for Assange. He could walk around the EU without any risk of extradition.

vidarh 12y ago
This would be more convincing if Sweden had not been caught out illegally cooperating with CIA renditions - in one instance handing two Egyptian political asylum seekers over to CIA, knowing they'd be handed over to Mubarak for torture. They insisted it had stopped. Only Wikileaks documents revealed the US ambassador was called in years later because Swedish military intelligence had just caught CIA, assisted by Swedish ground crew, carrying out further illegal rendition flights via Swedish airports. I don't that's a likely scenario for Assange - he's too well known, and Europe and Sweden would "have to" cause a massive stink if he was illegally abducted that way - it'd be a diplomatic nightmare. But in general, if concerned about being handed over to the US, Sweden would be pretty low on the list of countries I'd want to go to.
- rmc 12y ago
  As opposed to the UK, which is a founding member of NATO and joined the USA in invading Iraq?

rogerhoward 12y ago

Is Australia interested in prosecuting him? I doubt that. Treason is a crime against one's own country; the US cannot try him for treason, nor can Sweden. Let's not exaggerate here.

tptacek 12y ago
Actually, while you're right in spirit, I think you're technically wrong: you do not need to be a citizen of the US to be charged with treason. You just need to have betrayed an allegiance to the US. So for instance, resident aliens in the US can technically be charged with treason.
- deciplex 12y ago
  This is an interesting discussion but ultimately meaningless. You need not be charged with or convicted of anything for US authorities to decide to lock you up indefinitely and to deny habeas corpus, forever. There is absolutely no expectation of due process of law in the US.
  - rogerhoward 12y ago
    There is quite a bit of expectation of due process in general; the exceptions are notable because, well, they are exceptions. I'll grant the case of Guantanamo prisoners as heinous violations of the rule of law, but I consider it a huge stretch to suggest that Assange would - if extradited to the US - face either treason charges (for reasons already discussed) or indefinite detention without due process. Whatever you may think of the US policies of indefinite detention, he doesn't fit the profile for those who would qualify. He would, no doubt, be given a lengthy federal trial, likely found guilty and serve Federal prison time, while receiving moral and legal aid from many corners, particularly organizations concerned with civil rights, whistleblowing, and journalism. His conviction might even be eventually overturned. Indefinite detention works (in that it has not been stopped) because those who are imprisoned without due process have few mainstream defenders - plenty of people object to the methods, but are ho-hum on the actual people involved. Assange's detention without due process would be a political nightmare for the administration at very least.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      Indefinite detention "works" because it's structurally the same process as is used for prisoners of war, and we (in one of the great foreign policy blunders of the century) managed to declare war on a terrorist brand name instead of a state, meaning that we've created a military conflict that won't end --- where the conclusion of a conflict, usually (in the last 2 centuries) within single-digit years, is the normal way you resolve prisoner of war dilemmas. Not that I'd want to suggest that a discussion that starts out with "that's interesting but it doesn't matter because there's no such thing as due process in the US" is going to be productive, but the nature of indefinite detention is, in a positive sense, not a normative one, interesting.

infinotize 12y ago

I think the thing he actually fears is once in Sweden, having the US bring out some espionage charges, and then pressing the Swedish government to extradite him while he is in custody, after the Swedish charges play out.