5 ms·

When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

32 points by caleb_thompson 12y ago

wldcordeiro 12y ago
To me this thing where employers tell you not to discuss your pay always seemed like a strategy to keep wages low. I think if anything should be discussed freely between employees it's wages. I could see this being something that contributes to employees that stay with companies making less than those that move around. Those that stay around don't talk about wages and don't see how much they're getting screwed by their employers.
dalke 12y ago
In the last few years I've been surprised to learn just how many legal protections we have in the workplace. Neither I nor most of my friends, for example, know much about Title VII anti-discrimination protections, and many thought they had far fewer protections than they actually do. When are we, as workers, supposed to learn about these workplace laws? In high school, my law and government classes never talked about them. In college, the CS program had a semester on ethics which included copyright and patents, but not on workplace law. My wife's business courses, OTOH, did cover them. Some organizations have HR training for employees, but the usual primary goal of HR seems to be to keep the company from being sued for breaking the law, which is different than educating people about their legal rights. Unions would be one possible sort of education, but there isn't much unionization in software development in the US. Trade schools might be another, but the US leans strongly towards university-style academic training than trade schools. The best I've come up with is a talk, workshop, booth, open space, etc. as part of tech conferences. But I don't know enough to do that, nor do I know anyone who can.
- dale_carnegie 12y ago
  The problem isn't that people don't know about them, but even if people knew about them, most wouldn't use their right. Legal protections really only matter after you have been fired. If you exercise your protections while you are still employed, in most states the employer can just wait a month or two and then fire you for something unrelated. Even if they don't fire you and grudgingly put in place the changes, chances are it will simply create a work environment of distrust. Not to mention your vertical mobility in the company is now ruined, since who wants to promote someone who rocks the boat. In most cases, if you are lucky enough to have the freedom to do so, it is better to simply quit your job and find someplace that follows the rules and respects you from the get-go.
  - dalke 12y ago
    Your last comment got me to wondering - how does one tell if workplace follows the rules, etc. from the get-go? Perhaps a Joel-like list of questions to ask? If most of the employees during the interview can explain the difference between 'quid pro quo' and 'hostile environment' harassment, then they probably have a good understanding of EEOC guidelines. As to your first paragraph, I think you're right, except that it's also a numbers issue. For example, Title VII case law and EEOC guidelines are very clear that complaints about illegal discrimination are not required to go through formal/predefined channels. But in my discussions with people, many believe that it's okay for management to ignore complaints made outside of channels. (Some even think it's okay for management to punish those who didn't go through formal channels.) My optimistic belief is that if 95% of the people knew the law, instead of 5%, then it would be harder for management to carry out those illegal actions. Not impossible of course, just harder. I think your comment "create a work environment of distrust" is interesting. I would think that breaking workplace law also creates a work environment of distrust. Why is it often that the employee who complains is accused of distrust, rather than the lawbreaker? I recognize that it's common, but I don't know why. I can't see it as simply an aversion to rocking the boat, as the employer started the rocking, not the employee. My first thought was that it's simply a power asymmetry, but I think there's also a dark side even in egalitarian teams where people don't want to face up to the dirty laundry and prefer denial ("no one talks about Uncle XYZ's 'problem' with little children"). It's essentially the same with those who report fraud, waste, mismanagement, illegal activities, etc. Many have written about reasons why whistle blowers are often reviled - something I also don't really understand. ... I'm therefore somewhat relieved to know that no one really can explain why. The 2011 paper at http://www.vu.nl/nl/Images/Artikel%20Paul%20van%20Lange_tcm9-259358.pdf http://www.vu.nl/nl/Images/Artikel%20Paul%20van%20Lange_tcm9... says "We have no evidence based answers" to the question of why some people blow the whistle instead of obeying. Thanks for your comments - coming up with a response helped me understand my own thoughts better.
warmfuzzykitten 12y ago
Unless we all make the same amount, I truly don't want to know what my co-workers in the same pay grade make, and vice versa. I'm human and subject to jealousy, which can bring out all sorts of bad behavior. Knowing that someone else makes significantly more than I do for the same work - or as I would be all too quick to judge, for less than the same work - would be corrosive. My co-workers are human, too. I can accept with only a little residual bitterness that people in higher pay grades (executives!!) are often paid outlandishly more, but I don't want to know about my peers.
- click170 12y ago
  I do want to know what my colleagues make. I want to know that the intern sitting across from me didn't get an unfair deal from HR when they started, like I did at a previous employer. Not everyone knows to check GlassDoor, and not everyone is good at negotiating, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve a fair (market) rate. I want to know that the guy in the senior role in the corner who gets a lot done is paid appropriately for his work, because if he isn't then he's liable to find a company that will, and that would be a bigger loss for us than losing a few dollars to his pay check. This has happened at every tech job I've ever had -- so maybe I'm just thinking totally wrong about this, but I'd like to know why if I am. I want to know that my female colleague is not falling victim to sexism in the paycheck. I want to know if I'm working for a company that abuses colleagues, and this is one of the ways of spotting that. I understand that jealousy can be an issue for some people (myself included), but in my opinion your effort should be put into analyzing why your feeling that jealousy. There are times when I notice jealousy in myself, but when I stop and look at what I'm jealous at almost every time the other person is deserving of what they got. I take it as a learning experience, a sign that there is room for improvement in yourself.

To me this thing where employers tell you not to discuss your pay always seemed like a strategy to keep wages low. I think if anything should be discussed freely between employees it's wages. I could see this being something that contributes to employees that stay with companies making less than those that move around. Those that stay around don't talk about wages and don't see how much they're getting screwed by their employers.

dalke 12y ago

In the last few years I've been surprised to learn just how many legal protections we have in the workplace. Neither I nor most of my friends, for example, know much about Title VII anti-discrimination protections, and many thought they had far fewer protections than they actually do. When are we, as workers, supposed to learn about these workplace laws? In high school, my law and government classes never talked about them. In college, the CS program had a semester on ethics which included copyright and patents, but not on workplace law. My wife's business courses, OTOH, did cover them. Some organizations have HR training for employees, but the usual primary goal of HR seems to be to keep the company from being sued for breaking the law, which is different than educating people about their legal rights. Unions would be one possible sort of education, but there isn't much unionization in software development in the US. Trade schools might be another, but the US leans strongly towards university-style academic training than trade schools. The best I've come up with is a talk, workshop, booth, open space, etc. as part of tech conferences. But I don't know enough to do that, nor do I know anyone who can.

dale_carnegie 12y ago
The problem isn't that people don't know about them, but even if people knew about them, most wouldn't use their right. Legal protections really only matter after you have been fired. If you exercise your protections while you are still employed, in most states the employer can just wait a month or two and then fire you for something unrelated. Even if they don't fire you and grudgingly put in place the changes, chances are it will simply create a work environment of distrust. Not to mention your vertical mobility in the company is now ruined, since who wants to promote someone who rocks the boat. In most cases, if you are lucky enough to have the freedom to do so, it is better to simply quit your job and find someplace that follows the rules and respects you from the get-go.
- dalke 12y ago
  Your last comment got me to wondering - how does one tell if workplace follows the rules, etc. from the get-go? Perhaps a Joel-like list of questions to ask? If most of the employees during the interview can explain the difference between 'quid pro quo' and 'hostile environment' harassment, then they probably have a good understanding of EEOC guidelines. As to your first paragraph, I think you're right, except that it's also a numbers issue. For example, Title VII case law and EEOC guidelines are very clear that complaints about illegal discrimination are not required to go through formal/predefined channels. But in my discussions with people, many believe that it's okay for management to ignore complaints made outside of channels. (Some even think it's okay for management to punish those who didn't go through formal channels.) My optimistic belief is that if 95% of the people knew the law, instead of 5%, then it would be harder for management to carry out those illegal actions. Not impossible of course, just harder. I think your comment "create a work environment of distrust" is interesting. I would think that breaking workplace law also creates a work environment of distrust. Why is it often that the employee who complains is accused of distrust, rather than the lawbreaker? I recognize that it's common, but I don't know why. I can't see it as simply an aversion to rocking the boat, as the employer started the rocking, not the employee. My first thought was that it's simply a power asymmetry, but I think there's also a dark side even in egalitarian teams where people don't want to face up to the dirty laundry and prefer denial ("no one talks about Uncle XYZ's 'problem' with little children"). It's essentially the same with those who report fraud, waste, mismanagement, illegal activities, etc. Many have written about reasons why whistle blowers are often reviled - something I also don't really understand. ... I'm therefore somewhat relieved to know that no one really can explain why. The 2011 paper at http://www.vu.nl/nl/Images/Artikel%20Paul%20van%20Lange_tcm9-259358.pdf http://www.vu.nl/nl/Images/Artikel%20Paul%20van%20Lange_tcm9... says "We have no evidence based answers" to the question of why some people blow the whistle instead of obeying. Thanks for your comments - coming up with a response helped me understand my own thoughts better.

warmfuzzykitten 12y ago

Unless we all make the same amount, I truly don't want to know what my co-workers in the same pay grade make, and vice versa. I'm human and subject to jealousy, which can bring out all sorts of bad behavior. Knowing that someone else makes significantly more than I do for the same work - or as I would be all too quick to judge, for less than the same work - would be corrosive. My co-workers are human, too. I can accept with only a little residual bitterness that people in higher pay grades (executives!!) are often paid outlandishly more, but I don't want to know about my peers.

click170 12y ago
I do want to know what my colleagues make. I want to know that the intern sitting across from me didn't get an unfair deal from HR when they started, like I did at a previous employer. Not everyone knows to check GlassDoor, and not everyone is good at negotiating, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve a fair (market) rate. I want to know that the guy in the senior role in the corner who gets a lot done is paid appropriately for his work, because if he isn't then he's liable to find a company that will, and that would be a bigger loss for us than losing a few dollars to his pay check. This has happened at every tech job I've ever had -- so maybe I'm just thinking totally wrong about this, but I'd like to know why if I am. I want to know that my female colleague is not falling victim to sexism in the paycheck. I want to know if I'm working for a company that abuses colleagues, and this is one of the ways of spotting that. I understand that jealousy can be an issue for some people (myself included), but in my opinion your effort should be put into analyzing why your feeling that jealousy. There are times when I notice jealousy in myself, but when I stop and look at what I'm jealous at almost every time the other person is deserving of what they got. I take it as a learning experience, a sign that there is room for improvement in yourself.