4 ms·

Time for some trust-building with the community, after that um, unpleasant discovery that NSA has been up in that Google, and Google willingly accepted. About

by antocv 12y ago

Time for some trust-building with the community, after that um, unpleasant discovery that NSA has been up in that Google, and Google willingly accepted. About Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft etc, we have seen the list, Ive got to say, scumbags. They sold us all out and threw us under the bus. Lavabit - a simple company put up more of a fight than a multi billion dollar giant. Never forget.

jarsin 12y ago
I don't doubt that their cooperation with the government played a role in them getting a slap on wrist in the wage fixing conspiracy as well.
viraptor 12y ago
"unpleasant discovery that NSA has been up in that Google, and Google willingly accepted." [citation needed] Specifically for the willingly accepted part.
- spacefight 12y ago
  That fibers have been tapped by state actors was well known pre-Snowden (I recall reading a story about how subs were used in Russia etc), yet Google only completed encrypting their private fibers post-Swnoden.
  - viraptor 12y ago
    Sure, but as far as we know Google was not aware of it (it = US internal taping) and introduced encryption of private traffic to counteract it. I'm not aware of articles proving they knew about the taps. Are you? (yes, we can speculate they did, but let's say it like that)
    - spacefight 12y ago
      So the US tapped overseas cables for at least a couple of centuries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells) and people still feel amused by the MUSCULAR relevations...
  - mike_hearn 12y ago
    The assumption pre-Snowden was that only "hostile states" did that kind of thing, e.g fibres in and out of China were probably tapped, but most of the internet wasn't. Because, you know, search warrants do exist. It's rather arrogant to say "everyone should have known". Snowden's leaks have been making waves for a year solid now exactly because he showed that reality was the worst case scenario only the most extreme of the extreme postulated previously.
    - vezzy-fnord 12y ago
      It's rather arrogant to say "everyone should have known". No, it isn't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCSNet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCSNet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_SHAMROCK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_SHAMROCK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President%27s_Surveillance_Program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President%27s_Surveillance_Prog... etc. Of course, no one listened. It was much easier to just decry everyone as a "crazy conspiracy theorist", wasn't it?
      - spacefight 12y ago
        This. And thanks to everyone for the down-vote, much love from Google these days, eh?
        antocv 12y ago
        Jesus, the Google puppets are out strong on this one. Amazing.
- cowbell 12y ago
  http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/6/nsa-chief-google.html http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/6/nsa-chief-goo... There's also the fact that Google only started challenging the FISA court post-Snowden. To my knowledge, they're not even challenging the unconstitutional spying, just the gag order preventing Google from telling you how frequently Google turns over your data to the feds. This isn't just some theoretical, might be spying on "those people" sort of thing either. If you're reading this website, you probably are/have been a target: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/document/2014/03/20/hunt-sys-admins/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/document/2014/03/20/hunt-... Since Google openly acknowledges that Google never really deletes anything from gmail and other services (disk is cheap), they're providing information about you that even you have long forgotten. And finally, if you say "I have nothing to hide, I have nothing to fear" then you have completely missed the point of how this stuff works. Remember they target you, everyone who contacts you, and everyone who contacts that extended group. With that information, they find out who you love, and which ones of those people have pressure points. "Viraptor, it has come to our attention that your father is evading taxes. You wouldn't want anything bad to happen to your father, would you? We would like you to do some work for us in your role as sysadmin. Then we can forget about that incident..."
  - viraptor 12y ago
    Many strawmen, but nothing relating to my comment, which was "do we know Google knew about the taps". I'm not aware of any article proving that was the case. Re. the first link - companies of the size of Google will meet with the NSA at some point. They have to comply with many regulations and will have private chats at high level. They even willingly run NSA's software (selinux). This doesn't prove or disprove cooperation in communication taping. Just one of your points I wanted to address. > Google never really deletes anything from gmail and other services (disk is cheap) Also, data invalidation is hard - probably every company that's big enough should have it in their ToC, unless they assign a full drive to each customer and do hardware wipe on it when something is deleted. Deleting a file is essentially just setting a "this is deleted" flag, until other data overwrites this. I'm willing to bet none of the companies you interact with guarantees your data is physically deleted. Everyone should be aware of that.
  - 12y ago
jenscow 12y ago
I believe the blame should be shifted towards the legislation that these companies must adhere to.

by antocv 12y ago

jarsin 12y ago

I don't doubt that their cooperation with the government played a role in them getting a slap on wrist in the wage fixing conspiracy as well.

viraptor 12y ago

"unpleasant discovery that NSA has been up in that Google, and Google willingly accepted." [citation needed] Specifically for the willingly accepted part.

spacefight 12y ago
That fibers have been tapped by state actors was well known pre-Snowden (I recall reading a story about how subs were used in Russia etc), yet Google only completed encrypting their private fibers post-Swnoden.
- viraptor 12y ago
  Sure, but as far as we know Google was not aware of it (it = US internal taping) and introduced encryption of private traffic to counteract it. I'm not aware of articles proving they knew about the taps. Are you? (yes, we can speculate they did, but let's say it like that)
  - spacefight 12y ago
    So the US tapped overseas cables for at least a couple of centuries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells) and people still feel amused by the MUSCULAR relevations...
- mike_hearn 12y ago
  The assumption pre-Snowden was that only "hostile states" did that kind of thing, e.g fibres in and out of China were probably tapped, but most of the internet wasn't. Because, you know, search warrants do exist. It's rather arrogant to say "everyone should have known". Snowden's leaks have been making waves for a year solid now exactly because he showed that reality was the worst case scenario only the most extreme of the extreme postulated previously.
  - vezzy-fnord 12y ago
    It's rather arrogant to say "everyone should have known". No, it isn't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCSNet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCSNet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_SHAMROCK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_SHAMROCK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President%27s_Surveillance_Program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President%27s_Surveillance_Prog... etc. Of course, no one listened. It was much easier to just decry everyone as a "crazy conspiracy theorist", wasn't it?
    - spacefight 12y ago
      This. And thanks to everyone for the down-vote, much love from Google these days, eh?
      - antocv 12y ago
        Jesus, the Google puppets are out strong on this one. Amazing.
cowbell 12y ago
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/6/nsa-chief-google.html http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/6/nsa-chief-goo... There's also the fact that Google only started challenging the FISA court post-Snowden. To my knowledge, they're not even challenging the unconstitutional spying, just the gag order preventing Google from telling you how frequently Google turns over your data to the feds. This isn't just some theoretical, might be spying on "those people" sort of thing either. If you're reading this website, you probably are/have been a target: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/document/2014/03/20/hunt-sys-admins/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/document/2014/03/20/hunt-... Since Google openly acknowledges that Google never really deletes anything from gmail and other services (disk is cheap), they're providing information about you that even you have long forgotten. And finally, if you say "I have nothing to hide, I have nothing to fear" then you have completely missed the point of how this stuff works. Remember they target you, everyone who contacts you, and everyone who contacts that extended group. With that information, they find out who you love, and which ones of those people have pressure points. "Viraptor, it has come to our attention that your father is evading taxes. You wouldn't want anything bad to happen to your father, would you? We would like you to do some work for us in your role as sysadmin. Then we can forget about that incident..."
- viraptor 12y ago
  Many strawmen, but nothing relating to my comment, which was "do we know Google knew about the taps". I'm not aware of any article proving that was the case. Re. the first link - companies of the size of Google will meet with the NSA at some point. They have to comply with many regulations and will have private chats at high level. They even willingly run NSA's software (selinux). This doesn't prove or disprove cooperation in communication taping. Just one of your points I wanted to address. > Google never really deletes anything from gmail and other services (disk is cheap) Also, data invalidation is hard - probably every company that's big enough should have it in their ToC, unless they assign a full drive to each customer and do hardware wipe on it when something is deleted. Deleting a file is essentially just setting a "this is deleted" flag, until other data overwrites this. I'm willing to bet none of the companies you interact with guarantees your data is physically deleted. Everyone should be aware of that.
- 12y ago

jenscow 12y ago

I believe the blame should be shifted towards the legislation that these companies must adhere to.