7 ms·

Zinc – Rust’s safety features applied to embedded development

147 points by sanxiyn 12y ago

pjmlp 12y ago
This looks nice! Rust is starting to join Ada, Oberon, Pascal dialects compilers in bare metal support. Good way to dispel the belief only C compilers can do it. Specially if like Zinc, there is zero C code there.
nwh 12y ago
Zinc doesn't rust though. ED: Read the correction below.
- unfamiliar 12y ago
  That is almost incorrect. Zinc is used as a plating because it corrodes preferentially to steel, and in doing so it removes electrons needed for oxidation and thus prevents the steel from rusting. This is why you can stop a ship hull rusting by simply bolting a block of zinc to it.
  - marcosscriven 12y ago
    I read ages ago that the Sydney Opera House uses sea water for air conditioning, and has a sacrificial zinc anode.
marcosscriven 12y ago
Can someone clarify two things please? Firstly, bare metal here means this stack can create an img with an executable that will be run with nothing more the uboot? I.e. No OS, no kernel, not even a Rust runtime (hence, presumably, no std in the example)? Secondly, can anyone recommend a good reference to get a handle on platform trees? I first came across them on my beagle bone. My understanding it was mostly because Linus got fed up of hundreds of patches for each and every ARM board.
- bjackman 12y ago
  First question: I don't know but I interpreted it the same as you. Second question: The "platform trees" described in this post are not exactly the same as the "device trees" used by Linux on ARM (and also MIPS I think?). They are essentially the same concept, but device trees have their own DSL amd binary format. They are basically descriptions of the hardware om a system: the CPUs, the RAM, the peripherals. It allows the same kernel image to boot on multiple systems by intwrpreting the devicetree at boot time, rather than having to embed info about the system at compile time. You can get more info about device trees (a.k.a FDTs where F stands for "flattened") on devicetree.org and elinux.org.
- eric_bullington 12y ago
  >Firstly, bare metal here means this stack can create an img with an executable that will be run with nothing more the uboot? I.e. No OS, no kernel, not even a Rust runtime (hence, presumably, no std in the example)? Yes, that is correct. No OS, no kernel, no runtime. Now, Rust is isolating a core library (called libcore) that can be used without runtime support (and hence in projects like this one).
  - pjmlp 12y ago
    To be pedantic, from compiler design point of view, that is also a runtime.
    - eric_bullington 12y ago
      Well, it uses the libc runtime [This is actually mostly incorrect, see comment below by dbaupp], which obliges me to invoke the old quote, "the greatest trick C ever played was to convince the world it has no runtime". I wish I could track down the originator of that quote, but I have no idea. I'm sure someone here will know.
      - dbaupp 12y ago
        Libcore doesn't use the (entire) libc runtime; IIRC, it essentially just needs the memcpy and memset symbols to be defined.
gchp 12y ago
Is anyone here actually using Rust in a "real-world" situation? My impression is that is gaining traction, yet is not yet stable enough for production use. Anyone have experience to say otherwise?
- steveklabnik 12y ago
  There are three production deployments of Rust: OpenDNS, something I always forget, and Tilde, for Skylight.io. (I'm starting to think it's only two and my brain made up the mysterious second one) That said, you have to be a certain kind of person to use a pre-release programming language in production.
  - dbaupp 12y ago
    The best kind of person. :) ((Members of) Tilde are writing Rust's awesome new package manager, Cargo: http://crates.io/ http://crates.io/ )
    - steveklabnik 12y ago
      Right, which was great, as "We already use Rust in production" combined with "we built Bundler" is a pretty decent pitch.
  - gchp 12y ago
    Sweet, thanks for the reply! You say pre-release, is there a set release schedule for Rust?
    - dbaupp 12y ago
      The aim for 1.0 is for the end of this year; it will offer backwards compatibility at the language level (syntax and semantics of language constructs), and a subset of the standard library. The rest of the library will stabilised progressively. (The compiler warns/errors when using a nonstable language or library feature, so it will be easy to stick to the stable parts, or at least know what may need to be adjusted when updating. The goal is to a strict semantic versioning plan too.)
pestaa 12y ago
Great domain name for a project.
eric_bullington 12y ago
A came upon this the other day, and was so impressed that I'm about to drop $60 on an lpc1768, which is the primary MCU they are using at the beta stage (they plan to expand to others once the API is solidified). They also have used an stm32f4, which I do have at the moment, but support for it seems to have dwindled over the past few months. But I really like the safe way they are developing the API. Even the hardware configuration is done as a safe DSL. Very impressive. This project looks like a great foundation for a realtime OS in Rust I've been itching to try my hand at.
- omgtehlion 12y ago
  > I'm about to drop $60 on an lpc1768 I usually buy them at ~$3 a piece...
  - bluefinity 12y ago
    He means the demo board: http://www.nxp.com/demoboard/OM11043.html http://www.nxp.com/demoboard/OM11043.html
  - eric_bullington 12y ago
    Yeah, I should have specified the eval board, which includes peripherals. This Zinc project already has support for several of the peripherals, including a few TFT drivers, which I want to be able to try out. I don't always buy eval boards -- if a chip comes in a DIP package, I've just breadboarded it in the past. As a hobbyist, I haven't yet tried to build a breakout board for any SMT-mounted chips, but it's on my todo list. The one I'm looking at (by RioRand) is not a bad deal, since it actually includes a 2.8 inch TFT on the board as well as Ethernet interface. But I did consider just buying the chip and breadboarding it. I may still do that and buy the LCD separately. $60 would indeed be expensive for the chip alone.
    - omgtehlion 12y ago
      BTW, you cand find cheaper boards or with more peripherals from China, just check out eBay or aliexpress
diydsp 12y ago
I'm very exciting to see Rust move into embedded! Some minor comments: The page includes example code. I worry that it might be abstracting TOO much away, while at the same time hiding details. For example, in the main oscillator example, you still would have to consult deep in the manual to understand what m, n and divisor do if you wanted to change the frequency. I think if you're going to use a library, it would be cool to operate at a higher level than this. Also notice in the timer example, you still have no idea what frequency the timer will run at! Maybe I just want something higher-level built on top of this? Maybe I should implement libopencm3 on top of this? p.s. Crazed fans of the greatest microcontroller of all time, the stm32f4, check out http://reddit.com/r/stm32f4 http://reddit.com/r/stm32f4 and http://diydsp.com/livesite/pages/stm32f4 http://diydsp.com/livesite/pages/stm32f4
- eric_bullington 12y ago
  >http://diydsp.com/livesite/pages/stm32f4 http://diydsp.com/livesite/pages/stm32f4 Very cool page! Great links to some amazing projects on the stm32f4. I see you mention Lua and JavaScript on the stm32f4, have you seen micropython running on it? https://github.com/micropython/micropython/wiki/Board-STM32F407-Discovery https://github.com/micropython/micropython/wiki/Board-STM32F...
  - diydsp 12y ago
    Wow. I didn't know that was possible! Ima haveta try it. You can easily see I'm obsessed. I'll add it now. Seriously, a chip like this hasn't been out in a long time. Sure there are more powerful ones like the BeagleBoards and RPis, but they require more support hardware, space, components and power. Hell, the stm32f4 can run with just a few capacitors and no external crystal, and still have 24 analog inputs, two analog outputs and floating point. Plus it has internal cache so it can run at 168+ MHz and DMA, etc.
    - paletoy 12y ago
      I read that they will be release a new $1 stm32f4 mcu using a new process soon. http://www.st.com/web/en/news/n3547 http://www.st.com/web/en/news/n3547 BTW , my mistake , it's stm32f3 , altough it's cortex-m4. a bit weird naming.
kps 12y ago
I think it's unfortunate that LLVM has no first-class public targets smaller than ARM to help guard against ‘all the world's a VAX’ pitfalls. There are/were projects for MSP430 and AVR but it's not practical to keep up with LLVM without full-time developers.
- sanxiyn 12y ago
  As I understand, MSP430 is such first-class target. MSP430 is in-tree and maintained.

147 points by sanxiyn 12y ago

pjmlp 12y ago

This looks nice! Rust is starting to join Ada, Oberon, Pascal dialects compilers in bare metal support. Good way to dispel the belief only C compilers can do it. Specially if like Zinc, there is zero C code there.

nwh 12y ago

Zinc doesn't rust though. ED: Read the correction below.

unfamiliar 12y ago
That is almost incorrect. Zinc is used as a plating because it corrodes preferentially to steel, and in doing so it removes electrons needed for oxidation and thus prevents the steel from rusting. This is why you can stop a ship hull rusting by simply bolting a block of zinc to it.
- marcosscriven 12y ago
  I read ages ago that the Sydney Opera House uses sea water for air conditioning, and has a sacrificial zinc anode.

marcosscriven 12y ago

Can someone clarify two things please? Firstly, bare metal here means this stack can create an img with an executable that will be run with nothing more the uboot? I.e. No OS, no kernel, not even a Rust runtime (hence, presumably, no std in the example)? Secondly, can anyone recommend a good reference to get a handle on platform trees? I first came across them on my beagle bone. My understanding it was mostly because Linus got fed up of hundreds of patches for each and every ARM board.

bjackman 12y ago
First question: I don't know but I interpreted it the same as you. Second question: The "platform trees" described in this post are not exactly the same as the "device trees" used by Linux on ARM (and also MIPS I think?). They are essentially the same concept, but device trees have their own DSL amd binary format. They are basically descriptions of the hardware om a system: the CPUs, the RAM, the peripherals. It allows the same kernel image to boot on multiple systems by intwrpreting the devicetree at boot time, rather than having to embed info about the system at compile time. You can get more info about device trees (a.k.a FDTs where F stands for "flattened") on devicetree.org and elinux.org.
eric_bullington 12y ago
>Firstly, bare metal here means this stack can create an img with an executable that will be run with nothing more the uboot? I.e. No OS, no kernel, not even a Rust runtime (hence, presumably, no std in the example)? Yes, that is correct. No OS, no kernel, no runtime. Now, Rust is isolating a core library (called libcore) that can be used without runtime support (and hence in projects like this one).
- pjmlp 12y ago
  To be pedantic, from compiler design point of view, that is also a runtime.
  - eric_bullington 12y ago
    Well, it uses the libc runtime [This is actually mostly incorrect, see comment below by dbaupp], which obliges me to invoke the old quote, "the greatest trick C ever played was to convince the world it has no runtime". I wish I could track down the originator of that quote, but I have no idea. I'm sure someone here will know.
    - dbaupp 12y ago
      Libcore doesn't use the (entire) libc runtime; IIRC, it essentially just needs the memcpy and memset symbols to be defined.

gchp 12y ago

Is anyone here actually using Rust in a "real-world" situation? My impression is that is gaining traction, yet is not yet stable enough for production use. Anyone have experience to say otherwise?

steveklabnik 12y ago
There are three production deployments of Rust: OpenDNS, something I always forget, and Tilde, for Skylight.io. (I'm starting to think it's only two and my brain made up the mysterious second one) That said, you have to be a certain kind of person to use a pre-release programming language in production.
- dbaupp 12y ago
  The best kind of person. :) ((Members of) Tilde are writing Rust's awesome new package manager, Cargo: http://crates.io/ http://crates.io/ )
  - steveklabnik 12y ago
    Right, which was great, as "We already use Rust in production" combined with "we built Bundler" is a pretty decent pitch.
- gchp 12y ago
  Sweet, thanks for the reply! You say pre-release, is there a set release schedule for Rust?
  - dbaupp 12y ago
    The aim for 1.0 is for the end of this year; it will offer backwards compatibility at the language level (syntax and semantics of language constructs), and a subset of the standard library. The rest of the library will stabilised progressively. (The compiler warns/errors when using a nonstable language or library feature, so it will be easy to stick to the stable parts, or at least know what may need to be adjusted when updating. The goal is to a strict semantic versioning plan too.)

pestaa 12y ago

Great domain name for a project.

eric_bullington 12y ago

A came upon this the other day, and was so impressed that I'm about to drop $60 on an lpc1768, which is the primary MCU they are using at the beta stage (they plan to expand to others once the API is solidified). They also have used an stm32f4, which I do have at the moment, but support for it seems to have dwindled over the past few months. But I really like the safe way they are developing the API. Even the hardware configuration is done as a safe DSL. Very impressive. This project looks like a great foundation for a realtime OS in Rust I've been itching to try my hand at.

omgtehlion 12y ago
> I'm about to drop $60 on an lpc1768 I usually buy them at ~$3 a piece...
- bluefinity 12y ago
  He means the demo board: http://www.nxp.com/demoboard/OM11043.html http://www.nxp.com/demoboard/OM11043.html
- eric_bullington 12y ago
  Yeah, I should have specified the eval board, which includes peripherals. This Zinc project already has support for several of the peripherals, including a few TFT drivers, which I want to be able to try out. I don't always buy eval boards -- if a chip comes in a DIP package, I've just breadboarded it in the past. As a hobbyist, I haven't yet tried to build a breakout board for any SMT-mounted chips, but it's on my todo list. The one I'm looking at (by RioRand) is not a bad deal, since it actually includes a 2.8 inch TFT on the board as well as Ethernet interface. But I did consider just buying the chip and breadboarding it. I may still do that and buy the LCD separately. $60 would indeed be expensive for the chip alone.
  - omgtehlion 12y ago
    BTW, you cand find cheaper boards or with more peripherals from China, just check out eBay or aliexpress

diydsp 12y ago

I'm very exciting to see Rust move into embedded! Some minor comments: The page includes example code. I worry that it might be abstracting TOO much away, while at the same time hiding details. For example, in the main oscillator example, you still would have to consult deep in the manual to understand what m, n and divisor do if you wanted to change the frequency. I think if you're going to use a library, it would be cool to operate at a higher level than this. Also notice in the timer example, you still have no idea what frequency the timer will run at! Maybe I just want something higher-level built on top of this? Maybe I should implement libopencm3 on top of this? p.s. Crazed fans of the greatest microcontroller of all time, the stm32f4, check out http://reddit.com/r/stm32f4 http://reddit.com/r/stm32f4 and http://diydsp.com/livesite/pages/stm32f4 http://diydsp.com/livesite/pages/stm32f4

eric_bullington 12y ago
>http://diydsp.com/livesite/pages/stm32f4 http://diydsp.com/livesite/pages/stm32f4 Very cool page! Great links to some amazing projects on the stm32f4. I see you mention Lua and JavaScript on the stm32f4, have you seen micropython running on it? https://github.com/micropython/micropython/wiki/Board-STM32F407-Discovery https://github.com/micropython/micropython/wiki/Board-STM32F...
- diydsp 12y ago
  Wow. I didn't know that was possible! Ima haveta try it. You can easily see I'm obsessed. I'll add it now. Seriously, a chip like this hasn't been out in a long time. Sure there are more powerful ones like the BeagleBoards and RPis, but they require more support hardware, space, components and power. Hell, the stm32f4 can run with just a few capacitors and no external crystal, and still have 24 analog inputs, two analog outputs and floating point. Plus it has internal cache so it can run at 168+ MHz and DMA, etc.
  - paletoy 12y ago
    I read that they will be release a new $1 stm32f4 mcu using a new process soon. http://www.st.com/web/en/news/n3547 http://www.st.com/web/en/news/n3547 BTW , my mistake , it's stm32f3 , altough it's cortex-m4. a bit weird naming.

kps 12y ago

I think it's unfortunate that LLVM has no first-class public targets smaller than ARM to help guard against ‘all the world's a VAX’ pitfalls. There are/were projects for MSP430 and AVR but it's not practical to keep up with LLVM without full-time developers.

sanxiyn 12y ago
As I understand, MSP430 is such first-class target. MSP430 is in-tree and maintained.