4 ms·

> Do you know why I pay so little? That's because we have the free-est goddamn ISP market This is a little imprecise; "free" and "free of governmental interfer

> Do you know why I pay so little? That's because we have the free-est goddamn ISP market This is a little imprecise; "free" and "free of governmental interference" are not the same thing. More likely it is because you have a _competitive_ ISP market. That might in turn be because of how free your market is, but in order to really know we'd have to know how your area solved the problems that led city governments to grant monopolies in the first place.

ataggart 12y ago
>"free" and "free of governmental interference" are not the same thing. Since "free" in this context means absence of coercion against extant or would-be competitors, and since government regulatory efforts are a source of such anti-competitive coercion, unless one is concerned with firms sending hit squads against each other (which would more rightly be considered "crime"), the distinction isn't particularly useful.
- aninhumer 12y ago
  Are you suggesting the only possible forms of anti-competitive coercion are government regulation or hit squads?
  - zanny 12y ago
    If it is voluntary it is not coercive. You can always not deal with your competition on unfair terms. In what circumstance could a 3rd party non-violent entity coerce you? The biggest one I can think of is "buying you out" but that is still either voluntary, in that the owners agree on the buyout, or it is a buyout of a publicly traded company, and I can't even get started on how non-free market the stock market is, but even then you elected to sell ownership in a public marketplace voluntarily and took that risk.
    - aninhumer 12y ago
      >In what circumstance could a 3rd party non-violent entity coerce you? Predatory pricing. Buying up necessary capital. Paying other companies to not deal with you (Suppliers, Retailers, Advertisers etc.) All completely voluntary, and these are just off the top of my head.
      - ataggart 12y ago
        >Predatory pricing. Offering a lower price to consumers than your competition is not coercion against a competitor. >Buying up necessary capital. Offering a higher price to suppliers than your competition is not coercion against a competitor. >Paying other companies to not deal with you Entering into exclusive deals with other firms is not coercion against a competitor.
        aninhumer 12y ago
        And when you go bankrupt because you're unable to run your business, you'd consider that completely voluntary?
        snitko 12y ago
        How is it not voluntary? I started it. I knew upfront I could fail. Has anyone else forced me to fail?
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        aninhumer 12y ago
        Once you start the company, you are subject to market pressures, and when another company can manipulate those pressures, they can manipulate you. Indeed, even your decision of whether to start the company is influenced by the same market pressures.
        zanny 12y ago

ataggart 12y ago

>"free" and "free of governmental interference" are not the same thing. Since "free" in this context means absence of coercion against extant or would-be competitors, and since government regulatory efforts are a source of such anti-competitive coercion, unless one is concerned with firms sending hit squads against each other (which would more rightly be considered "crime"), the distinction isn't particularly useful.

aninhumer 12y ago
Are you suggesting the only possible forms of anti-competitive coercion are government regulation or hit squads?
- zanny 12y ago
  If it is voluntary it is not coercive. You can always not deal with your competition on unfair terms. In what circumstance could a 3rd party non-violent entity coerce you? The biggest one I can think of is "buying you out" but that is still either voluntary, in that the owners agree on the buyout, or it is a buyout of a publicly traded company, and I can't even get started on how non-free market the stock market is, but even then you elected to sell ownership in a public marketplace voluntarily and took that risk.
  - aninhumer 12y ago
    >In what circumstance could a 3rd party non-violent entity coerce you? Predatory pricing. Buying up necessary capital. Paying other companies to not deal with you (Suppliers, Retailers, Advertisers etc.) All completely voluntary, and these are just off the top of my head.
    - ataggart 12y ago
      >Predatory pricing. Offering a lower price to consumers than your competition is not coercion against a competitor. >Buying up necessary capital. Offering a higher price to suppliers than your competition is not coercion against a competitor. >Paying other companies to not deal with you Entering into exclusive deals with other firms is not coercion against a competitor.
      - aninhumer 12y ago
        And when you go bankrupt because you're unable to run your business, you'd consider that completely voluntary?
        snitko 12y ago
        How is it not voluntary? I started it. I knew upfront I could fail. Has anyone else forced me to fail?
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        aninhumer 12y ago
        Once you start the company, you are subject to market pressures, and when another company can manipulate those pressures, they can manipulate you. Indeed, even your decision of whether to start the company is influenced by the same market pressures.
        zanny 12y ago