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"Why do some people feel this way?...And I can honestly offer the following answer: I have no idea." Do you actually not know? Or are you asking rhetorically?

"Why do some people feel this way?...And I can honestly offer the following answer: I have no idea." Do you actually not know? Or are you asking rhetorically? The reasons seem pretty obvious to me, not sure why they would be hard to figure out.

sethsd 12y ago
i meant that i don't know what the answer is. because the obvious answers that sound really good -- diversity, education, economic development -- may not work.
- henrymercer 12y ago
  IMO, the Stromfront-type writings consist of about 30% legitimate grievance and perhaps 70% crackpottery, all portrayed in a grossly simplified and vulgar way. Part of the fuel for the crackpottery, is that the media/NYTimes in general ignore or downplay the legitimate grievances. Once you stop believing the NYTimes, well, what do you believe? You can believe anything a random site on the internet says. So one obvious answer, which you left out, is to actually address the legitimate grievances. The other obvious answer is censorship. Why don't we have a Stormfront TV channel? Because such a channel could never get a cable license, and if it did, it would get sued out of existence. Surely some lawsuit can be conjured up to shut down Stormfront, and make it impossible for other web hosts to host such sites? So either address the grievances and make peace or crush them underfoot and leave no doubt - those are always the two traditional ways to deal with hateful dissenters.
  - michaelochurch 12y ago
    30% legitimate grievance Legitimate grievance? How is blaming the world's problems on "the Jews" (as if they all operated as one) anything remotely resembling legitimate grievance? Poor, rural white Americans are getting a raw deal (thanks, in large part, to right-wing politicians they were misled into electing) but that's because poor, rural people everywhere are getting a bad deal these days. "Whites are an oppressed group" is complete idiocy and an indefensible position.
    - henrymercer 12y ago
      "The Jews are to blame" aspect is NOT part of the 30% that is legitimate grievance. See my other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8029096 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8029096
      - igravious 12y ago
        Yeah, silly michaelochurch. It's black on white crime of course. (Well according to your comment.) Add to that faulty logic. Add to that the general degradation of morals and the kids of today, I tell you. --- Let's completely forget the centuries long history of white on black oppression that has led to the unequal socio-economic conditions between blacks and whites. I'd, you know, cut them some slack. --- You do realise that every generation has claimed that the "youth of today" are nothing compared to how things were "back in the day". I mean, really? --- The only thing you said that made sense is tribalism. I would jettison the rest if I were you.
        henrymercer 12y ago
        "Let's completely forget the centuries long history of white on black oppression that has led to the unequal socio-economic conditions between blacks and whites. I'd, you know, cut them some slack." By saying "cut them some slack" you are implying that I am doing the opposite. IE, I you are implying that I am being too hard on black people. How is this case? I pointed out a legitimate problem - black-on-white crime. Is it not a problem that multiple friends and people like my friends (ie white or Asian) were assaulted or killed in nearby neighborhoods? Is it not a problem? Should I just be silent about these problems? What on earth does "cutting them some slack mean"? I'm not endorsing stormfronts views on the matter, I am just saying that the base of their hatred there are some real, legitimate problems. "You do realise that every generation has claimed that the "youth of today" are nothing compared to how things were "back in the day". I mean, really?" Yes, I realize that. It also true. Most of the people who ever complained about the decline of the youth, were in fact correct. That is how the rise and fall of civilizations works. Civilizations explode out of a small tribes of ultra-militant, ultra-fertile, ultra-patriarchal, utlra-disciplined people. See for instance, the Puritan settlers of America who had fertility rates of nearly 10 per woman, who conquered New England, begot 16 million descendants and established the American empire. Each generation was slightly more decadent than the previous. But the momentum from the starting culture was so great that there was a lot of expansion before the cultural decay becomes apparent, and the decline phase sets in. Eventually, the society becomes too decadent and corrupt, and a new hard-core tribe comes in and conquers. So the cycle goes. How many years before ISIS rules us all? Hopefully it won't be in my lifetime. One side note - the decline is not uniform or all one-way. Within the broader trend there are ebbs and flows among subpopulations of being more or less vulgar, more or less decadent, etc. Vulgarity actually probably decreases for a while as the break-out tribe becomes more "civilized", and then starts to rise again as order declines. (I think the 1950's were probably an absolute minimum of vulgarity in the U.S.) "I would jettison the rest if I were you." Is that a threat?
  - blendergasket 12y ago
    > Once you stop believing the NYTimes, well, what do you believe? You can believe anything a random site on the internet says. So one obvious answer, which you left out, is to actually address the legitimate grievances. This. When people fall out of the bottom of the officially sanctioned narrative space, whether it be true, false or especially (as it probably always is) some really complex combination of the two they need to rely on their own judgement and sometimes that judgement will lead to Nazis or Reptilians or some combination thereof.
dsjoerg 12y ago
What are these obvious reasons?
- henrymercer 12y ago
  The hateful milieu arises from the mixing of four ingredients: One part legitimate grievance. For instance, black on white crime is a huge problem that is not talked about and not addressed in mainstream discourse. In Philadelphia, a close friend of mine got mugged at gunpoint outside of her apartment. Two blocks away, recently, a twenty-something woman who could have been any of my friends, was mugged, shot, and killed. In another incident, a man fitting my own demographic profile, was mugged, shot and paralyzed, a few blocks away. Elsewhere, a group of yuppies walking home were attacked by a "flash mob" and had the crap beaten out of them ( http://www.phillymag.com/news/2011/06/27/fk-flash-mobs/ http://www.phillymag.com/news/2011/06/27/fk-flash-mobs/ ). My friend now fears to go to the grocery store after dark. Young professionals fear sending their kids to public schools because their kids will get beaten up and be made miserable ( see http://thenotebook.org/blog/125398/looking-back-on-racial-violence-south-philly-high http://thenotebook.org/blog/125398/looking-back-on-racial-vi... or http://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/comments/1lfr7l/as_a_new_white_kid_in_a_predominately_black/cbyx7d8 http://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/comments/1lfr7l/as_a_n... ) When you have legitimate grievances, and discussion of those grievances is actively suppressed (see http://whitegirlbleedalot.com/ http://whitegirlbleedalot.com/ ), then it is easy to get carried away with further conspiracies that are not actually true. That leads us to the next ingredient. One part pattern-matching that leads to plausible, but false, grievances. For instance, it is undeniably true that "Jews totally run Hollywood" ( see http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/19/opinion/oe-stein19 http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/19/opinion/oe-stein19 ). It is also arguably true that the output of Hollywood is poisoning our culture and leading to the destruction of our civilization. If you believe those two things, then it is not that much of a leap to believe that Jews are ruining the country. Personally, I believe that Hollywood is poisonous, but I do not blame it on the Jews. I think the Jewish people have a disproportionate number of savvy businessman, they ended up running the studios for historical reasons, and that they are mainly producing the films that people want to see. If Hollywood was run by gentiles, the output would be largely the same. Perhaps the main problem is actually the First Amendment - civilization might not be able to survive the freedom to watch addictive trash on television. One part tribal instinct. When you feel like you have been lied to, called evil, and excluded, well, you want to find other fellow travelers to bond with. And then the internal dialogue feeds on itself, and it exacerbates the "us-against-them" mentality. One part general vulgarity due to a break down in character education in our society. My mother has frequently commented on the general rudeness, vulgarity, uncivilness, etc. in recent generations versus when she grew up in the 1950's. I suspect this is not just nostalgia. Especially on the internet, people say awful things. Put it all together, and Stormfront is what you get.

sethsd 12y ago

i meant that i don't know what the answer is. because the obvious answers that sound really good -- diversity, education, economic development -- may not work.

henrymercer 12y ago
IMO, the Stromfront-type writings consist of about 30% legitimate grievance and perhaps 70% crackpottery, all portrayed in a grossly simplified and vulgar way. Part of the fuel for the crackpottery, is that the media/NYTimes in general ignore or downplay the legitimate grievances. Once you stop believing the NYTimes, well, what do you believe? You can believe anything a random site on the internet says. So one obvious answer, which you left out, is to actually address the legitimate grievances. The other obvious answer is censorship. Why don't we have a Stormfront TV channel? Because such a channel could never get a cable license, and if it did, it would get sued out of existence. Surely some lawsuit can be conjured up to shut down Stormfront, and make it impossible for other web hosts to host such sites? So either address the grievances and make peace or crush them underfoot and leave no doubt - those are always the two traditional ways to deal with hateful dissenters.
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  30% legitimate grievance Legitimate grievance? How is blaming the world's problems on "the Jews" (as if they all operated as one) anything remotely resembling legitimate grievance? Poor, rural white Americans are getting a raw deal (thanks, in large part, to right-wing politicians they were misled into electing) but that's because poor, rural people everywhere are getting a bad deal these days. "Whites are an oppressed group" is complete idiocy and an indefensible position.
  - henrymercer 12y ago
    "The Jews are to blame" aspect is NOT part of the 30% that is legitimate grievance. See my other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8029096 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8029096
    - igravious 12y ago
      Yeah, silly michaelochurch. It's black on white crime of course. (Well according to your comment.) Add to that faulty logic. Add to that the general degradation of morals and the kids of today, I tell you. --- Let's completely forget the centuries long history of white on black oppression that has led to the unequal socio-economic conditions between blacks and whites. I'd, you know, cut them some slack. --- You do realise that every generation has claimed that the "youth of today" are nothing compared to how things were "back in the day". I mean, really? --- The only thing you said that made sense is tribalism. I would jettison the rest if I were you.
      - henrymercer 12y ago
        "Let's completely forget the centuries long history of white on black oppression that has led to the unequal socio-economic conditions between blacks and whites. I'd, you know, cut them some slack." By saying "cut them some slack" you are implying that I am doing the opposite. IE, I you are implying that I am being too hard on black people. How is this case? I pointed out a legitimate problem - black-on-white crime. Is it not a problem that multiple friends and people like my friends (ie white or Asian) were assaulted or killed in nearby neighborhoods? Is it not a problem? Should I just be silent about these problems? What on earth does "cutting them some slack mean"? I'm not endorsing stormfronts views on the matter, I am just saying that the base of their hatred there are some real, legitimate problems. "You do realise that every generation has claimed that the "youth of today" are nothing compared to how things were "back in the day". I mean, really?" Yes, I realize that. It also true. Most of the people who ever complained about the decline of the youth, were in fact correct. That is how the rise and fall of civilizations works. Civilizations explode out of a small tribes of ultra-militant, ultra-fertile, ultra-patriarchal, utlra-disciplined people. See for instance, the Puritan settlers of America who had fertility rates of nearly 10 per woman, who conquered New England, begot 16 million descendants and established the American empire. Each generation was slightly more decadent than the previous. But the momentum from the starting culture was so great that there was a lot of expansion before the cultural decay becomes apparent, and the decline phase sets in. Eventually, the society becomes too decadent and corrupt, and a new hard-core tribe comes in and conquers. So the cycle goes. How many years before ISIS rules us all? Hopefully it won't be in my lifetime. One side note - the decline is not uniform or all one-way. Within the broader trend there are ebbs and flows among subpopulations of being more or less vulgar, more or less decadent, etc. Vulgarity actually probably decreases for a while as the break-out tribe becomes more "civilized", and then starts to rise again as order declines. (I think the 1950's were probably an absolute minimum of vulgarity in the U.S.) "I would jettison the rest if I were you." Is that a threat?
- blendergasket 12y ago
  > Once you stop believing the NYTimes, well, what do you believe? You can believe anything a random site on the internet says. So one obvious answer, which you left out, is to actually address the legitimate grievances. This. When people fall out of the bottom of the officially sanctioned narrative space, whether it be true, false or especially (as it probably always is) some really complex combination of the two they need to rely on their own judgement and sometimes that judgement will lead to Nazis or Reptilians or some combination thereof.

dsjoerg 12y ago

What are these obvious reasons?

henrymercer 12y ago
The hateful milieu arises from the mixing of four ingredients: One part legitimate grievance. For instance, black on white crime is a huge problem that is not talked about and not addressed in mainstream discourse. In Philadelphia, a close friend of mine got mugged at gunpoint outside of her apartment. Two blocks away, recently, a twenty-something woman who could have been any of my friends, was mugged, shot, and killed. In another incident, a man fitting my own demographic profile, was mugged, shot and paralyzed, a few blocks away. Elsewhere, a group of yuppies walking home were attacked by a "flash mob" and had the crap beaten out of them ( http://www.phillymag.com/news/2011/06/27/fk-flash-mobs/ http://www.phillymag.com/news/2011/06/27/fk-flash-mobs/ ). My friend now fears to go to the grocery store after dark. Young professionals fear sending their kids to public schools because their kids will get beaten up and be made miserable ( see http://thenotebook.org/blog/125398/looking-back-on-racial-violence-south-philly-high http://thenotebook.org/blog/125398/looking-back-on-racial-vi... or http://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/comments/1lfr7l/as_a_new_white_kid_in_a_predominately_black/cbyx7d8 http://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/comments/1lfr7l/as_a_n... ) When you have legitimate grievances, and discussion of those grievances is actively suppressed (see http://whitegirlbleedalot.com/ http://whitegirlbleedalot.com/ ), then it is easy to get carried away with further conspiracies that are not actually true. That leads us to the next ingredient. One part pattern-matching that leads to plausible, but false, grievances. For instance, it is undeniably true that "Jews totally run Hollywood" ( see http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/19/opinion/oe-stein19 http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/19/opinion/oe-stein19 ). It is also arguably true that the output of Hollywood is poisoning our culture and leading to the destruction of our civilization. If you believe those two things, then it is not that much of a leap to believe that Jews are ruining the country. Personally, I believe that Hollywood is poisonous, but I do not blame it on the Jews. I think the Jewish people have a disproportionate number of savvy businessman, they ended up running the studios for historical reasons, and that they are mainly producing the films that people want to see. If Hollywood was run by gentiles, the output would be largely the same. Perhaps the main problem is actually the First Amendment - civilization might not be able to survive the freedom to watch addictive trash on television. One part tribal instinct. When you feel like you have been lied to, called evil, and excluded, well, you want to find other fellow travelers to bond with. And then the internal dialogue feeds on itself, and it exacerbates the "us-against-them" mentality. One part general vulgarity due to a break down in character education in our society. My mother has frequently commented on the general rudeness, vulgarity, uncivilness, etc. in recent generations versus when she grew up in the 1950's. I suspect this is not just nostalgia. Especially on the internet, people say awful things. Put it all together, and Stormfront is what you get.