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Hardware Case Study: Why Lockitron Has Taken So Long To Ship

198 points by Jarred 12y ago

msandford 12y ago
It's not that it's an order of magnitude harder to make hardware than software. It's that you have to know what you're doing. Cobbling something together with an Arduino and some other one-off parts is one thing, manufacturing is different. But it's not that hard to understand; it's the difference between a hacked-together MVC or early release that might fall over with 10k users versus a mature platform that can handle 10mm concurrent users with no problems. Not bringing competent manufacturing capabilities in-house is the same as supposing that you can run a tech startup strictly using short-term contractors or people from oDesk. With no real stake in the final outcome, only in meeting their contracted deliverables, they don't care if the whole thing succeeds or fails. As long as they get paid for their little part the bigger picture is irrelevant. Having misaligned incentives is a fairly straightforward way to have problems.
- dgreensp 12y ago
  Dealing with suppliers and Chinese factories may present a logistical challenge, but it's still easier and less expensive than doing the manufacturing yourself. If you have experience developing a hardware product, I'll defer to your experience, but what I've seen from being on the periphery of a couple hardware projects doesn't jive with what you're saying are the lessons learned from trying to ship a polished hardware product with a small team on a limited budget.
  - msandford 12y ago
    > Dealing with suppliers and Chinese factories may present a logistical challenge, but it's still easier and less expensive than doing the manufacturing yourself. I sort-of agree with you there and sort-of don't. IF (and this is a HUGE if) you already know EXACTLY what your product is going to be THEN you MIGHT be able to save a bunch of money using Chinese suppliers and factories. But when you're doing a hardware Kickstarted kind of product you don't necessarily know exactly what the product is and how it will work. You might well be inexperienced too. Manufacturing in-house gives you the ability to rapidly iterate and close the feedback loop (which any good software engineer will tell you is critical) so that you can go from sorta-working to working to working perfectly. 3d printed parts are not the same as injection molded parts for myriad reasons. The screws for assembly you buy off of mcmaster carr will almost assuredly be different than the ones your Chinese supplier gives you, especially if you don't know to ask what the material is, what the tolerances are, etc. A screw is a screw right? Not even close. Software guys often have a lot of trouble understanding hardware because software is so pure. A bit is a bit and it always will be. An object has a type which often fully defines it. Bits can largely be counted on not to flip. If it passes the tests in dev and test it should work in production, and if it doesn't we can revert it. When you do all this stuff in China your feedback loop might be 3-6 months long. That means that you might spend two years (4 to 8 iterations) getting from an idea to a worthwhile product. Doing manufacturing in-house can bring your feedback loop from months to hours, days or weeks. For the same 4-8 iterations you might only spend a few months. That's the difference between "very nearly success" and "quite late, eventual delivery way behind schedule and expectations"
  - krschultz 12y ago
    I've worked at a couple companies that build hardware. In my experience you need at least 1 mechanical engineer on the company payroll. I don't think you need to own the tools or the factory, but building hardware is as difficult if not more so than software. No one would fund a software startup where they didn't have a single FT software engineer, yet for some reason people think that "it's just plastic" so you can contract it all out. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a lot of nuance to getting an injection molded design right.
  - bsder 12y ago
    > Dealing with suppliers and Chinese factories may present a logistical challenge, but it's still easier and less expensive than doing the manufacturing yourself. Not true for mechanical things. Injection molding machines are now all electrical and sit in the quarter million dollar range. CNC machines similarly. A million dollars gets you a very nice mechanical production line and machine shop that lets you fabricate precision metal parts AND high volume plastic parts. Now, your only expenses are salary and production inputs. I deal with this every day. How many tooling charges at $5,000 to $10,000 per charge do you have to take before that machine shop makes sense? Not many. I've eaten that charge 22 times in the last 3 years. I'm starting to accumulate the machine shop...
    - msandford 12y ago
      I am doing what you're talking about but with old, used equipment. You can get old injection molding machines for less than $50k each, maybe much much less. It's the same for used CNCs. If you know a little bit you can tell if it's still in good shape or if it needs work. I will put together a decent production line for much less than a million, probably much less than $100k in capital equipment. At that point the rent and air conditioning start to become substantial (Texas, so it's HOT). Every time I read someone saying "software is eating the world!" and all the smart people rushing into software I always have a little chuckle. I really love it. It means that anything that's not software has a dearth of smart folk and that puts me at a huge competitive advantage.
      - bsder 12y ago
        I don't find many all-electric injection molding machines used, yet. Otherwise, yes, lots of used stuff is available.
        msandford 12y ago
        Yeah I don't care about the specific technology. Hydraulic is fine by me because my needs are relatively speaking low volume. One piece a minute is plenty for the foreseeable future and that isn't challenging in the slightest. I'm also partial to having a couple of machines instead of just one because of the reliability. If I spend $250k upfront (which I don't have) I get one machine that's going to be extremely reliable but if it does break I'm losing you know $500 an hour or whatever it is. If I spend $20k on one machine and $30k on another and $50k on a third I end up with no single point of failure. Yeah they will break more but I'll (probably) never be stuck with no ability to make parts. It's easier capex too since revenue from the first finances the second and revenue from those two finance the third. What kind of stuff do you do? I don't interact with many people on here who have mechanical aptitude. Obviously products of some kind. Can you talk about it? I'm intrigued.
debt 12y ago
As a backer myself: this reads like someone who quite literally no idea what they were doing or getting into in the first place and likely doing it for all the wrong reasons. How did they not know the difference between building a single prototype by hand and manufacturing thousands of units? It sucks to think these people have now devoted a few years of their lives, likely stressful years at that, to general incompetence. You got your kickstarter funded now you're saying "sorry it's just hard" to ship the requested units? All so some people can remotely lock something. The case study should highlight how it happened that y'all missed the points above in the first place and put emphasis ob why someone does a Kickstarter to begin with.
- gkoberger 12y ago
  They underestimated how hard it would be, however I don't think it was incompetence. They knew it would be hard, and it was even harder than they assumed -- like any startup (hardware or software) ends up being. It's easy to have opinions when you aren't the one building it.
  - bravo22 12y ago
    I agree. I'd say it was overconfidence more than incompetence; coupled with a slightly unhealthy dose of overpromising/misleading on key features.
- dgreensp 12y ago
  It doesn't sound like they wasted any time due to incompetence to me, it sounds like they took a few years to do something that realistically takes a few years.
  - URSpider94 12y ago
    I don't think that's accurate. Mature product development companies regularly turn out products of this complexity, or much higher, in 12 months or less.
    - 12y ago
jacquesm 12y ago
Maybe they should have read up on wakemate? Hardware seems so simple. But it really isn't.
XorNot 12y ago
Seeing as how the Doorbot (which is much simpler) is a colossal disaster (my family bought one, against my general advice) I'm really not surprised. Though in that case it's very much because their software platform utterly sucks - given how the Lockitron works I'm amazed they have anything at all.
- zapt02 12y ago
  Thinking of getting a Doorbot right now. What's wrong with it? Looks really convenient from the promotional video.
  - XorNot 12y ago
    Terrible video - it only supports 802.11b (so it'll drag the rest of your wireless down potentially too). Wi-fi range seemed short. The Android client has been broken since we got it (and never fixed) - you get no notifications on it. No local LAN support - everything tries to go over the internet, and their servers are unreliable. Lag time of something like 30 minutes is not uncommon. Doesn't integrate with a lot of existing doorbell/intercom systems (ostensibly it'll work with AC ones, it didn't work with mine which is admittedly some type of DC - but simple enough, short to ring and all that). It is all round a terrible product which was launched in an unusable state, with really poor design decisions.
    - bravo22 12y ago
      What's your new doorbell system? Is there a brand name? How's the battery life on door bot?
      - XorNot 12y ago
        As it stood we couldn't use the Doorbot with our doorbell system at all (it was installed ~2005, some no-name chinese brand). Hooking it up led to the Doorbot constantly ringing it. EDIT: Actually I'm misremembering - it did hook up just fine, but pressing the button on the Doorbot led to it rining the doorbell continuously for some reason. No real idea about battery life - its been sitting on a bench somewhere for the past year or so, since we gave up when we realized it was going to be either the Doorbot or the doorbell which actually rang, and found the notifications on phones were unreliable. We also realized that at home, you usually don't have your phone on you or even necessarily nearby - hence the doorbell. The one nice thing about the Doorbot was they were trying to solve the battery issue by letting you draw power of the doorbell circuit - but since ours isn't AC (or has to low of a "ring" current) we couldn't use that.
bravo22 12y ago
Here are some other reasons: 1- WiFi drains battery fast, therefore advertising instant WiFi unlocking was foolish, if not purposefully misleading from the beginning. (Look through their posts on HN when Lockitron was first announced and you'll see that they admit that instant WiFi unlocking isn't feasible yet that's not the impression they gave the backers) 2- Determining intent (i.e. I want to unlock the door) through proximity is a fool's errand. You'll have an impossible time trying to get user's position right without multiple receivers and have to resort to wonky logic they use today which won't work for a vast number of people: if user A unlocks the door then ignore his phone until he exist... hmm what if user A enters with user B, or user A leaves though the car in the garage but wants come back through the door? 3- BUILD A PROPER PROTOTYPE. It means critical functionality being there, like unlocking via BLE and unlocking via WiFi. Does it work reliably? No? Fix it. Don't promise anything! Don't put up a video until you have a proper prototype. Heck, you don't even need mechanicals. Light up an LED to indicate unlocking for all anyone cares. If it doesn't work here in your lab, it won't work out there. There is no magic fairy dust that reduces power consumption or makes something work at scale when it doesn't work in your lab. 4- Knowing how to use an Arduino doesn't make you a product developer, just as knowing Javascript doesn't mean you can deploy a backend that supports 1M users and you only get to deploy it once. Pay an experienced EE or consulting company for 20, 30, 40 hours of work to review your design, plan, and feasibility. Done right Lockitron is about ~$25-$30 in parts + PCBA cost -- not considering mold amortization. 5- Cameron enumerates a number of mechanical and electrical problems. The fact is you can get a number of low cost electrical locks from China today that have reliable turning mechanisms. It has been done. Those factories will gladly OEM an entire lock for you -- or in this case just sell you the parts or the whole assembled mechanism. Tear apart a Kwikset keypad lock and see how few gears it has. Their main problem seems to be that they started with the wrong/inefficient mechanical design and tried to make everything fit that. There are lots of existing, inexpensive, gearboxes you can buy that would give you the torque you need. At worst you'd have to get a custom designed output gear. Even then there are many Chinese vendors who make gears. I've bought from them before. They have a large catalogue, and if you want something they don't have NRE is about $1200 + 4 week delivery. 6- "The resulting power and torque requirements of our gear box required a number of changes on our circuit board that would have been nearly impossible to predict from our prototype units". This could have been avoided by buying the ANSI/BHMA deadbolt standard which specifies maximum torque required for the thumbturn. Add 25% safety margin and you should be good with virtually all locks sold in north america as they are ANSI/BHMA compliant.
raverbashing 12y ago
Jeez People (especially on kickstarter) think that if they have a pretty 3D drawing of the thing the hardware is going to be a breeze. Oh and they're going to use Arduino for it Funny. Not. I think Arduino made people think "everybody can work with hardware now wohoo!!" Oh but they don't know Ohm's law. "We quickly learned that there was no concept of “off the shelf” when manufacturing in China." Well, of course there is. Unless the existing parts don't fit your project. Then you'll need a lot of parts specd for your need. Tip: don't do that. You'll already have to do the case, circuit board and maybe power source, this is enough trouble. Add in mechanics and you're in for a tough ride. I've seen hardware bugs in reference implementations from people that should've known better. Manufacturing reliability is always lower than you think it is.
- bravo22 12y ago
  Agree 100%. Another common approach to further mitigate manufacturing reliability issues is to contract a single vendor to make and assemble the mechanical unit. Basically everything from input shaft to output shaft goes into a box. You put the motor in and build a contraption to measure the output torque, etc. You only pay them for units that actually pass the test. The failed units are their problem. Look at the price they'll quote you for this and you'll know how reliable they really think their process is.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Oh and they're going to use Arduino for it Well, shit, that means they are like 95% done right? The silly thing is an Arduino bypasses possibly the easiest part of a microcontroller project. While they do have some convenience, if you need an Arduino you have no business tackling a sophisticated electrical project...
deleted 12y ago
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DanBC 12y ago
> This also meant protracted lead times as well as the potential for vendor lock-in for our most specialized parts. Those are your parts; the designs are owned by you. You are always free to ask around for other manfs to make them. > Even what seemed to be commodity components like switches, screws and motors would be made to spec. This makes the product sound terrible. I really doubt they need to make screws or switches.
- StillBored 12y ago
  This makes the product sound terrible. I really doubt they need to make screws or switches. I thought the same thing. It reminded me of the genie garage door openers at my rental property. The end limit switches are were obviously designed in house and are basically two strips of some copper alloy spring material that come into contact as the door passes. The problem is that a garage is a dirty/corrosive environment. On a yearly basis I have to sand the contacts. All this to save a few pennies vs just buying a standard micro switch! I can't determine if its was incompetence, cost cutting, or just planned obsolescence. Of course, I just posted a few things on another board about how I think the lack of software licensing leads to the lack of "software standards" where everyone and their brother is basically doing the equivalent of building their own screws, with their own thread pitches and head patterns or using whatever happens to be "cool" this month.
w1ntermute 12y ago
I've never understood why keypad locks haven't been more widely adopted in the West - they're very common in South Korea (and probably many other Asian countries). Lockitron seems like a solution in search of a problem.
- raverbashing 12y ago
  In Europe they're very common
  - icebraining 12y ago
    Europe's a big place. I don't think I've ever seen one in a residential home here in Portugal, nor in the parts of Spain I know.
    - raverbashing 12y ago
      True, I generalized, they're very popular in France I don't remember seeing them in Germany
      - icebraining 12y ago
        Do they have them on the apartment doors, or just in the main building door like in Budapest? If the latter, it doesn't really replace Lockitron.
        raverbashing 12y ago
        It depends, mostly on the main building door But there are models that are made to go on an apartment door/main door. However, they don't usually replace the whole lock, but are there for authorized people to go during business hours Yeah, not really a replacement for Lockitron
- maratd 12y ago
  > I've never understood why keypad locks haven't been more widely adopted in the West They have been adopted widely. In businesses. It's mostly a perception issue, where such locks are perceived as a product for a business. That said, it's a lot more convenient to walk up to a door and have it unlock automatically because it detects your phone ... than to stand there and enter a code.
mikehmayer 12y ago
I had a Lockitron and I had to send it back. I rather enjoyed the idea and I truly believed they would eventually arrive at the right combination of firmware and software that would allow it to behave the way it was intended. After owning it for nearly a year and having it only work reliably probably 20% of the time I had one galvanizing experience with it that made me arrive at the realization that it is fundamentally flawed. It is a motorized lock connected to WiFi with a back up of a standard key lock. As it turns out, if the Lockitron runs out of battery mid way through actuating the lock it will freeze the lock in that position. No amount of manual force though just the key backup will work. I spent several hours locked out of my apartment one night requiring emergency service from my complex management and asking a guy to wake up my neighbor so they could climb a ladder and break into my apartment via my balcony. Cameron and the Lockitron staff I interacted with was very good and understanding at all times- but I just could not trust the Lockitron any more. Since it was a battery hog and the battery dying midst turn is a critical problem and there was no notification whatsoever of the battery condition (at the time) AND I couldn't use the manual back up, I had to return it.
- andrewtbham 12y ago
  one possible way to solve this problem is to not initiate turning the lock if the battery is too low.
  - StavrosK 12y ago
    You'd think they'd be doing that already, really.
  - mikehmayer 12y ago
    Cameron did note how he was surprised the Lockitron worked that morning. Apparently they had some insight about the battery level that was not being relayed to me. I think they've since rectified that with a push notification- I never saw anything like that though.
  - paulrov 12y ago
    or not having a battery powered lock in the first place… the concept just seems utterly absurd.
etsept 12y ago
> When Lockitron’s crowdfunding campaign rocketed beyond all expectations, one of our close advisors from the software world asked us why we couldn’t iterate Lockitron in batches. “Ship 1,000 units, pause, and learn from what users wanted in the hardware, then build another 1,000.” With limited resources, this simply isn’t possible; each Lockitron prototype was a $3,000-5,000 investment. I feel like I'm not understanding this passage. Is he saying iterating in batches of 1,000 is impossible because it would add $3-5 cost to a product that they sell for $179?
- bravo22 12y ago
  I think that's what he is saying but I disagree with his numbers. For 10 units machining plastic costs a lot of money. But you wouldn't do that for 1000 prototypes. You would use something like vacuum casting to make the housings and the gears are made from blanks and machined. It might cost you at WORST ~$300 (likely a lot less) for the 1,000 units.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
ChuckMcM 12y ago
[Random question for dang, why the 'hn=true' cgi arg? Isn't the referrer field sufficient?] This was a great article. One of the things that is sorely under estimated by folks is that that "pipeline" from parts to product requires several dozen specially trained people to function well. As a small organization you have to train each group from start to finish to get to the point where the end product can ship. When I worked for Tut systems the manufacturing process was amazing, and where a software process is designed with testing to insure modules work, a hardware process is filled with processes that quickly identify problems before they get assembled into the product. Very rewarding though, and very doable, you just have to budget the time to do it and go in knowing you are training up a pipeline. There is no "magic" manufacturer that can take your idea and make it.
- dang 12y ago
  > Random question for dang, why the 'hn=true' cgi arg? The submitter added it to get around the dupe detector. The article was previously posted (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8028073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8028073). Since the previous post had no discussion, and wasn't killed by flags or by a moderator, the repost is ok.
- evan_ 12y ago
  > Isn't the referrer field sufficient? referer isn't sent in a lot of cases, including when a link on an HTTPS page goes to an HTTP page.
akehrer 12y ago
This is what technical debt looks like on the hardware side, missed deadlines and quality issues. Kudos to Cameron and the Lockitron folks for sharing their experience. I think bravo22 already covered some of the choices they made up front that got them in to trouble. It appears they didn't have the knowledge or experience to put a good plan together when they suddenly had to scale from 1000 or so units to multiple thousands. Here are a few (more) reasons: 1. Unaware of the environment. bravo22 already touched on the existing deadbolt standard and current products on the shelf. Whether they knew about these or not, it sounds like they chose to go in to production with their prototype (buggy) design instead of sourcing or modifying an existing solution. 2. Lack of specific knowledge. They expressed difficulty meshing the electronic and mechanical parts of their system. There are plenty of engineers that have electro-mechanical design experience that they could have leaned on, either hired on to do the redesign or to guide them in the right direction for things like gear-train torque calcs, material selection and fabrication methods (think redesigning a part for injection molding), power consumption calcs, part count reduction... Much of this may only be a Google search away, but if they don't have enough knowledge to know how to apply it correctly then that leaves them at the mercy of either fate or their suppliers. 3. Documentation. "While there is some truth to this, making hardware at scale is still incredibly difficult — if not for the actual physical manufacturing itself but for the compounding complexity of suppliers, tooling and testing." You need good documentation. Part drawings with realistic tolerances that produce parts that make functional assemblies. Work instructions that spell out things like order of operations, screw torque specifications, inline QC checks, etc. The documentation is often your contract with the supplier and if it's poor or not well thought out then the product quality suffers. These guys are going through an awesome trial by fire. They have a well funded, very public, product that they are trying to turn out and they should be commended for sticking with it for that last two years, and for being willing to talk about their challenges. Just like any other start-up, succeed or fail, they're going to be a better position when they do it again.
mrchess 12y ago
The only reason I bought this initially is because the YC team made a comment like "we've been using this for a while and it's awesome". It made me believe they had already done a lot of testing on the product, and that it was in production use. After the first year it became clear the Lockitron was just an idea. I have no idea why the YC team made a testimonial for it as if it were a finished product. The second year the e-mail updates were constantly "X is wrong and we are fixing it. We want to make the best product possible." Blah blah. Yeah, whatever. What it comes down to is that Lockitrons entire campaign was misleading, from their website, to the YouTube videos, to the Kickstarter -- the entire company is smoke and mirrors. The company is really good at explaining why things are wrong, but is terrible at actually fixing them. My frustration stems from them constantly promising things, but missing their deadlines by months, and in this case, years. Not once, but several times. I cancelled my order a while ago, the Lockitron brand is destroyed in my mind, and I have been hesitant to back any hardware projects ever since. I really wanted to believe.
- sheetjs 12y ago
  Out of curiosity: if they weren't YC, would you be more or less skeptical of the claim? I'm wondering whether you bought it because you believed the team (based on your understanding of the problem and solution) or because you believed in YC
  - goldenkey 12y ago
    I bought it because of YC comments. I was sorely disappointed when the wifi unlock did not work like it was stated because of the battery drain. I returned it and have just made my own with a wired arduino. Faster, instant unlock, and no batteries to worry about :)
- JacobAldridge 12y ago
  Question for you for goldenkey below: Do you mean YC or HN? The YC team, while growing, is still a fairly small collective of amazingly brilliant people. The HN team is, at the end of the day, largely anonymous people on the internet. (Albeit the most amazingly brilliant collective of largely anonymous people on the internet I've ever come across.)
mrchess 12y ago
This article is just like all the e-mail updates they send. Long winded excuses with no results. "X is broken, we are trying to fix it so that we live up to our high standard. We are excited to see what is next and will ship soon." They have been singing the same song for 2+ years. Personally I could care less about their delays. My beef with the company is that EVERY update they lead on customers, saying "We're almost there!". No, you're not. I cancelled my order after the 4th delay.
- mikeash 12y ago
  They're terrible with providing updates. I'm amazed. My dashboard still says that my unit is anticipated to ship in May 2014, and this is far from the first time they've gone past the shipping estimate without a word to me. How hard is it to write some code that checks for shipping estimates that are about to become false, updates them, and notifies the people in question?
uxtapose 12y ago
I'm curious if Lockitron is still in use at the YC offices, 649 days later: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4602821 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4602821
- paulrov 12y ago
  > presumably because you use your phone for so many other things whereas most keys do nothing but get you into a single building This logic is utterly bizarre, surely your work key is on the same keychain as your house key…
dm2 12y ago
Rather than WiFi built into the device, why not using something like ZigBee (what the Nest Protect uses to talk between devices) to connect to a small WiFi enabled plug that fits into an electrical outlet? Would this work? If the battery life is still a problem then I wouldn't have a problem with having a detachable module for the Nest that can be removed once a week and manually recharged.
kjackson2012 12y ago
TLDR: we didn't know what we were doing when we started, and we learned a lot along the way. Unfortunately this came at the expense of our customers.
- joosters 12y ago
  The way that they describe how they learned must irritate backers as well. "We soon learned" ... "It quickly became apparent" ... if this learning process was quick, how come you discovered none of it until after you took everyone's money?
trimtab 12y ago
Low power WiFi can be done. I've installed sensors that run xmit WiFi and run on a pair of C cells for years. But a large concern with Lockitron is their dependence on Electric Imp. Because when Electric Imp fails, Lockitron loses access to all their customer's locks.
xorcist 12y ago
It would be interesting to know what the VC pitch for this product was. It's absolutely a cool product, but there are some hard problems to solve there, so it's a mystery to me why one would on top of that start on the difficult consumer market. (As a consumer myself, my immediate reaction is that a battery operated deadbolt for my door is far, far down the list of gadgets I lust for. It's so far down the list it's not even on the list. The ability for a third party company to operate my door lock is even on the list of things I'd pay to avoid. I just imagine there to be a nest of insurance liabilities there and I wouldn't want to touch something where that wasn't worked out first.) At best if this product really worked out, you'd have a small company selling thousands (not hundreds of thousands) of units to consumers with all the support liabilities that entails. Not something that usually thrills investors. Normally you would see such a company start out with high margin stuff where installations are built on a case basis anyway. To make it more concrete, here's an example: Step one: Decide that the app is your core product. Start working with an existing electronic doorlock system. Step two: Sell to offices. Maybe hotels. A flashy app could very well be enough to tip potential sales in your direction. Develop functionality where the app gives you an edge (could be integration with AD, useful revocation, whatever). Step three: Either get acquired by a giant in the business ("profit") or spread out to alarm systems. Those are ugly and hard to use. Use this leverage to get a foot in the notoriously difficult consumer market and grow from there. The underlying ideas here are that existing players in this space are notoriously bad at software, and that you should stick to use cases where electric locks or sensors are already in place and play off that. But perhaps this niche is already taken by Nest and that's why they went for this particular consumer niche? I don't know but it would sure be interesting to read a future post mortem analysis, if things turn out that way.
post_break 12y ago
I have a danalock and it's been rock solid. Undercut the lockitron on price, and it shipped. I've been using it for 6 months and so far the only hiccup was bluetooth compatibility until my phone got an update. I'm surprised there isn't a "Nest" for portable locks. It seems so simple. Turn a tumbler, that's it. It's not rocket science. The danalock isn't perfect, and there's an added cost for Z-wave but I think it's one of the best options out there for someone not wanting to replace their entire lock. (apartment or renters)
dkarl 12y ago
I'm very frustrated by the house door keyless entry systems on the market, having just ordered a Kevo despite being underwhelmed and a little bit concerned by the Amazon reviews. It blows my mind (in a bad way) to see eager buyers waiting for neophytes to get acquainted with the business of hardware while the keyless entry system for my car has worked perfectly for five years now. It seems like it would go so much better for consumers if a company in the automobile industry would spin off a unit to tackle the problem. They have people with all the right experience, not just with the manufacturing challenges described in the article but with ergonomics, testing for durability, and security. I'm sure there's an economic or business reason why it's unfolding the way it is, but that doesn't reduce my frustration. So many things feel backward about it. Starting with a cheap, bolt-on almost-solution? That doesn't seem right for a part of your home that you interact with every day. Using consumers as beta testers? That feels wrong for a security device that controls access to your home and everything you own. Developing a home keyless entry system without exploiting the human capital developed on successful keyless entry systems for cars? Definitely the hard way. It seems like the right way for a home keyless entry system to be developed would be for a company with lots of resources and relevant experience to develop a reliable, durable, convenient solution and then work on bringing the cost down from a thousand bucks to something reasonable. Instead, we have little companies trying to scrape by selling not-quite-there products at early adopter prices. (I paid over $200 for the Kevo despite Amazon reviews reporting, among other things, accidental engagement of the deadbolt while the door is swinging shut.) I don't hold any of this against Lockitron. They're taking the route they are out of necessity, and I'm grateful for it, because without them and other upstarts, the market wouldn't be moving forward at all. At this point I feel conflicted, because I'd hate to see their work rewarded by getting blown out of the water by a bigger, better-funded competitor, but on the other hand, that seems like the fastest way for me to get a product I really like. (As a final note/aside, determining intent to unlock the door is an unsolvable problem with traditional door hardware. Usability is going to suck until all the lock/latch/knob hardware is redesigned for keyless entry. Everything until then is just intermediate steps until home hardware catches up to the standard set by automobiles.)
HardwareLover 12y ago
The difficulty of making connected hardware products and the failure of crowdfunded hardware projects/products are not new. The controversy surrounding crowdfunded hardware tend to come and go, and different allegations--from fraud to failure of products--take center stage each time. Generally, these allegations come about because of the shipping/delivery delays, and there are a whole bunch of factors that contribute to the delays, such as unrealistic expectations on the part of the inventor -- what the startup hopes to deliver in a product (eg. 10 high specification features packed into a keychain sized device) versus what current technologies and materials can actually do (eg. 5 high spec features in a palm-sized device). Another factor is the sophistication of a product. In general (from conversations with project managers who worked at Asian OEMs/ODMs), the typical time taken to develop and build a product (of similar quality to iProducts) takes at least 12-18 months. Unless your product can be whiteboxed (or a similar product has been done before), this is the typical minimum time-frame required to build consumer electronics. And if your product falls under a new category (eg. key-sized food scanners), then more time will be required to research, develop and find the right technologies/materials to build the product. The product is not impossible to build, but just requires more time to make it happen. Of course, the inventor can turn to any factory in Shenzhen to manufacture the product (which may agree to a shorter manufacturing time-frame in order to get your business), but what you get eventually is a product that doesn't work well after investing a large sum of money (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/07/how-one-kickstarter-project-squandered-3-5-million/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/07/how-one-kickstarter-p...). The reason why hardware takes a long time to make and bring to market is because, unlike software, after the molding is done, the product needs to undergo many iterations, testing, certifications, blah blah blah... Also, before a product is shipped, at least over 30 key decisions typically need to be made and over 400 tasks need to be completed in sequence at different stages--and missing a task may result in weeks-long delay. For software developers looking to make hardware and have no previous hardware-making experience, suggest you involve someone familiar with the manufacturing process and pitfalls right from the start (eg. product concept stage). The person could be an in-house or external expert, and by involving the person early, you can ensure that your design/specs/expectations are feasible --> in turn giving a realistic manufacturing time-frame. If you need to get an estimation of the time needed for your hardware product development, check out this SaaS navigation tool: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jlim/2014/07/08/the-new-hwtrek-guides-hardware-projects-from-idea-to-production-in-asia/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jlim/2014/07/08/the-new-hwtrek-g....
kamilah381 12y ago
It's good to see hardware startups be open about the challenges of being a hardware startup.

198 points by Jarred 12y ago

It's not that it's an order of magnitude harder to make hardware than software. It's that you have to know what you're doing. Cobbling something together with an Arduino and some other one-off parts is one thing, manufacturing is different. But it's not that hard to understand; it's the difference between a hacked-together MVC or early release that might fall over with 10k users versus a mature platform that can handle 10mm concurrent users with no problems. Not bringing competent manufacturing capabilities in-house is the same as supposing that you can run a tech startup strictly using short-term contractors or people from oDesk. With no real stake in the final outcome, only in meeting their contracted deliverables, they don't care if the whole thing succeeds or fails. As long as they get paid for their little part the bigger picture is irrelevant. Having misaligned incentives is a fairly straightforward way to have problems.

dgreensp 12y ago
Dealing with suppliers and Chinese factories may present a logistical challenge, but it's still easier and less expensive than doing the manufacturing yourself. If you have experience developing a hardware product, I'll defer to your experience, but what I've seen from being on the periphery of a couple hardware projects doesn't jive with what you're saying are the lessons learned from trying to ship a polished hardware product with a small team on a limited budget.
- msandford 12y ago
  > Dealing with suppliers and Chinese factories may present a logistical challenge, but it's still easier and less expensive than doing the manufacturing yourself. I sort-of agree with you there and sort-of don't. IF (and this is a HUGE if) you already know EXACTLY what your product is going to be THEN you MIGHT be able to save a bunch of money using Chinese suppliers and factories. But when you're doing a hardware Kickstarted kind of product you don't necessarily know exactly what the product is and how it will work. You might well be inexperienced too. Manufacturing in-house gives you the ability to rapidly iterate and close the feedback loop (which any good software engineer will tell you is critical) so that you can go from sorta-working to working to working perfectly. 3d printed parts are not the same as injection molded parts for myriad reasons. The screws for assembly you buy off of mcmaster carr will almost assuredly be different than the ones your Chinese supplier gives you, especially if you don't know to ask what the material is, what the tolerances are, etc. A screw is a screw right? Not even close. Software guys often have a lot of trouble understanding hardware because software is so pure. A bit is a bit and it always will be. An object has a type which often fully defines it. Bits can largely be counted on not to flip. If it passes the tests in dev and test it should work in production, and if it doesn't we can revert it. When you do all this stuff in China your feedback loop might be 3-6 months long. That means that you might spend two years (4 to 8 iterations) getting from an idea to a worthwhile product. Doing manufacturing in-house can bring your feedback loop from months to hours, days or weeks. For the same 4-8 iterations you might only spend a few months. That's the difference between "very nearly success" and "quite late, eventual delivery way behind schedule and expectations"
- krschultz 12y ago
  I've worked at a couple companies that build hardware. In my experience you need at least 1 mechanical engineer on the company payroll. I don't think you need to own the tools or the factory, but building hardware is as difficult if not more so than software. No one would fund a software startup where they didn't have a single FT software engineer, yet for some reason people think that "it's just plastic" so you can contract it all out. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a lot of nuance to getting an injection molded design right.
- bsder 12y ago
  > Dealing with suppliers and Chinese factories may present a logistical challenge, but it's still easier and less expensive than doing the manufacturing yourself. Not true for mechanical things. Injection molding machines are now all electrical and sit in the quarter million dollar range. CNC machines similarly. A million dollars gets you a very nice mechanical production line and machine shop that lets you fabricate precision metal parts AND high volume plastic parts. Now, your only expenses are salary and production inputs. I deal with this every day. How many tooling charges at $5,000 to $10,000 per charge do you have to take before that machine shop makes sense? Not many. I've eaten that charge 22 times in the last 3 years. I'm starting to accumulate the machine shop...
  - msandford 12y ago
    I am doing what you're talking about but with old, used equipment. You can get old injection molding machines for less than $50k each, maybe much much less. It's the same for used CNCs. If you know a little bit you can tell if it's still in good shape or if it needs work. I will put together a decent production line for much less than a million, probably much less than $100k in capital equipment. At that point the rent and air conditioning start to become substantial (Texas, so it's HOT). Every time I read someone saying "software is eating the world!" and all the smart people rushing into software I always have a little chuckle. I really love it. It means that anything that's not software has a dearth of smart folk and that puts me at a huge competitive advantage.
    - bsder 12y ago
      I don't find many all-electric injection molding machines used, yet. Otherwise, yes, lots of used stuff is available.
      - msandford 12y ago
        Yeah I don't care about the specific technology. Hydraulic is fine by me because my needs are relatively speaking low volume. One piece a minute is plenty for the foreseeable future and that isn't challenging in the slightest. I'm also partial to having a couple of machines instead of just one because of the reliability. If I spend $250k upfront (which I don't have) I get one machine that's going to be extremely reliable but if it does break I'm losing you know $500 an hour or whatever it is. If I spend $20k on one machine and $30k on another and $50k on a third I end up with no single point of failure. Yeah they will break more but I'll (probably) never be stuck with no ability to make parts. It's easier capex too since revenue from the first finances the second and revenue from those two finance the third. What kind of stuff do you do? I don't interact with many people on here who have mechanical aptitude. Obviously products of some kind. Can you talk about it? I'm intrigued.

debt 12y ago

As a backer myself: this reads like someone who quite literally no idea what they were doing or getting into in the first place and likely doing it for all the wrong reasons. How did they not know the difference between building a single prototype by hand and manufacturing thousands of units? It sucks to think these people have now devoted a few years of their lives, likely stressful years at that, to general incompetence. You got your kickstarter funded now you're saying "sorry it's just hard" to ship the requested units? All so some people can remotely lock something. The case study should highlight how it happened that y'all missed the points above in the first place and put emphasis ob why someone does a Kickstarter to begin with.

gkoberger 12y ago
They underestimated how hard it would be, however I don't think it was incompetence. They knew it would be hard, and it was even harder than they assumed -- like any startup (hardware or software) ends up being. It's easy to have opinions when you aren't the one building it.
- bravo22 12y ago
  I agree. I'd say it was overconfidence more than incompetence; coupled with a slightly unhealthy dose of overpromising/misleading on key features.
dgreensp 12y ago
It doesn't sound like they wasted any time due to incompetence to me, it sounds like they took a few years to do something that realistically takes a few years.
- URSpider94 12y ago
  I don't think that's accurate. Mature product development companies regularly turn out products of this complexity, or much higher, in 12 months or less.
  - 12y ago

jacquesm 12y ago

Maybe they should have read up on wakemate? Hardware seems so simple. But it really isn't.

XorNot 12y ago

Seeing as how the Doorbot (which is much simpler) is a colossal disaster (my family bought one, against my general advice) I'm really not surprised. Though in that case it's very much because their software platform utterly sucks - given how the Lockitron works I'm amazed they have anything at all.

zapt02 12y ago
Thinking of getting a Doorbot right now. What's wrong with it? Looks really convenient from the promotional video.
- XorNot 12y ago
  Terrible video - it only supports 802.11b (so it'll drag the rest of your wireless down potentially too). Wi-fi range seemed short. The Android client has been broken since we got it (and never fixed) - you get no notifications on it. No local LAN support - everything tries to go over the internet, and their servers are unreliable. Lag time of something like 30 minutes is not uncommon. Doesn't integrate with a lot of existing doorbell/intercom systems (ostensibly it'll work with AC ones, it didn't work with mine which is admittedly some type of DC - but simple enough, short to ring and all that). It is all round a terrible product which was launched in an unusable state, with really poor design decisions.
  - bravo22 12y ago
    What's your new doorbell system? Is there a brand name? How's the battery life on door bot?
    - XorNot 12y ago
      As it stood we couldn't use the Doorbot with our doorbell system at all (it was installed ~2005, some no-name chinese brand). Hooking it up led to the Doorbot constantly ringing it. EDIT: Actually I'm misremembering - it did hook up just fine, but pressing the button on the Doorbot led to it rining the doorbell continuously for some reason. No real idea about battery life - its been sitting on a bench somewhere for the past year or so, since we gave up when we realized it was going to be either the Doorbot or the doorbell which actually rang, and found the notifications on phones were unreliable. We also realized that at home, you usually don't have your phone on you or even necessarily nearby - hence the doorbell. The one nice thing about the Doorbot was they were trying to solve the battery issue by letting you draw power of the doorbell circuit - but since ours isn't AC (or has to low of a "ring" current) we couldn't use that.

bravo22 12y ago

Here are some other reasons: 1- WiFi drains battery fast, therefore advertising instant WiFi unlocking was foolish, if not purposefully misleading from the beginning. (Look through their posts on HN when Lockitron was first announced and you'll see that they admit that instant WiFi unlocking isn't feasible yet that's not the impression they gave the backers) 2- Determining intent (i.e. I want to unlock the door) through proximity is a fool's errand. You'll have an impossible time trying to get user's position right without multiple receivers and have to resort to wonky logic they use today which won't work for a vast number of people: if user A unlocks the door then ignore his phone until he exist... hmm what if user A enters with user B, or user A leaves though the car in the garage but wants come back through the door? 3- BUILD A PROPER PROTOTYPE. It means critical functionality being there, like unlocking via BLE and unlocking via WiFi. Does it work reliably? No? Fix it. Don't promise anything! Don't put up a video until you have a proper prototype. Heck, you don't even need mechanicals. Light up an LED to indicate unlocking for all anyone cares. If it doesn't work here in your lab, it won't work out there. There is no magic fairy dust that reduces power consumption or makes something work at scale when it doesn't work in your lab. 4- Knowing how to use an Arduino doesn't make you a product developer, just as knowing Javascript doesn't mean you can deploy a backend that supports 1M users and you only get to deploy it once. Pay an experienced EE or consulting company for 20, 30, 40 hours of work to review your design, plan, and feasibility. Done right Lockitron is about ~$25-$30 in parts + PCBA cost -- not considering mold amortization. 5- Cameron enumerates a number of mechanical and electrical problems. The fact is you can get a number of low cost electrical locks from China today that have reliable turning mechanisms. It has been done. Those factories will gladly OEM an entire lock for you -- or in this case just sell you the parts or the whole assembled mechanism. Tear apart a Kwikset keypad lock and see how few gears it has. Their main problem seems to be that they started with the wrong/inefficient mechanical design and tried to make everything fit that. There are lots of existing, inexpensive, gearboxes you can buy that would give you the torque you need. At worst you'd have to get a custom designed output gear. Even then there are many Chinese vendors who make gears. I've bought from them before. They have a large catalogue, and if you want something they don't have NRE is about $1200 + 4 week delivery. 6- "The resulting power and torque requirements of our gear box required a number of changes on our circuit board that would have been nearly impossible to predict from our prototype units". This could have been avoided by buying the ANSI/BHMA deadbolt standard which specifies maximum torque required for the thumbturn. Add 25% safety margin and you should be good with virtually all locks sold in north america as they are ANSI/BHMA compliant.

raverbashing 12y ago

Jeez People (especially on kickstarter) think that if they have a pretty 3D drawing of the thing the hardware is going to be a breeze. Oh and they're going to use Arduino for it Funny. Not. I think Arduino made people think "everybody can work with hardware now wohoo!!" Oh but they don't know Ohm's law. "We quickly learned that there was no concept of “off the shelf” when manufacturing in China." Well, of course there is. Unless the existing parts don't fit your project. Then you'll need a lot of parts specd for your need. Tip: don't do that. You'll already have to do the case, circuit board and maybe power source, this is enough trouble. Add in mechanics and you're in for a tough ride. I've seen hardware bugs in reference implementations from people that should've known better. Manufacturing reliability is always lower than you think it is.

bravo22 12y ago
Agree 100%. Another common approach to further mitigate manufacturing reliability issues is to contract a single vendor to make and assemble the mechanical unit. Basically everything from input shaft to output shaft goes into a box. You put the motor in and build a contraption to measure the output torque, etc. You only pay them for units that actually pass the test. The failed units are their problem. Look at the price they'll quote you for this and you'll know how reliable they really think their process is.
sliverstorm 12y ago
Oh and they're going to use Arduino for it Well, shit, that means they are like 95% done right? The silly thing is an Arduino bypasses possibly the easiest part of a microcontroller project. While they do have some convenience, if you need an Arduino you have no business tackling a sophisticated electrical project...

deleted 12y ago

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DanBC 12y ago

> This also meant protracted lead times as well as the potential for vendor lock-in for our most specialized parts. Those are your parts; the designs are owned by you. You are always free to ask around for other manfs to make them. > Even what seemed to be commodity components like switches, screws and motors would be made to spec. This makes the product sound terrible. I really doubt they need to make screws or switches.

StillBored 12y ago
This makes the product sound terrible. I really doubt they need to make screws or switches. I thought the same thing. It reminded me of the genie garage door openers at my rental property. The end limit switches are were obviously designed in house and are basically two strips of some copper alloy spring material that come into contact as the door passes. The problem is that a garage is a dirty/corrosive environment. On a yearly basis I have to sand the contacts. All this to save a few pennies vs just buying a standard micro switch! I can't determine if its was incompetence, cost cutting, or just planned obsolescence. Of course, I just posted a few things on another board about how I think the lack of software licensing leads to the lack of "software standards" where everyone and their brother is basically doing the equivalent of building their own screws, with their own thread pitches and head patterns or using whatever happens to be "cool" this month.

w1ntermute 12y ago

I've never understood why keypad locks haven't been more widely adopted in the West - they're very common in South Korea (and probably many other Asian countries). Lockitron seems like a solution in search of a problem.

raverbashing 12y ago
In Europe they're very common
- icebraining 12y ago
  Europe's a big place. I don't think I've ever seen one in a residential home here in Portugal, nor in the parts of Spain I know.
  - raverbashing 12y ago
    True, I generalized, they're very popular in France I don't remember seeing them in Germany
    - icebraining 12y ago
      Do they have them on the apartment doors, or just in the main building door like in Budapest? If the latter, it doesn't really replace Lockitron.
      - raverbashing 12y ago
        It depends, mostly on the main building door But there are models that are made to go on an apartment door/main door. However, they don't usually replace the whole lock, but are there for authorized people to go during business hours Yeah, not really a replacement for Lockitron
maratd 12y ago
> I've never understood why keypad locks haven't been more widely adopted in the West They have been adopted widely. In businesses. It's mostly a perception issue, where such locks are perceived as a product for a business. That said, it's a lot more convenient to walk up to a door and have it unlock automatically because it detects your phone ... than to stand there and enter a code.

mikehmayer 12y ago

I had a Lockitron and I had to send it back. I rather enjoyed the idea and I truly believed they would eventually arrive at the right combination of firmware and software that would allow it to behave the way it was intended. After owning it for nearly a year and having it only work reliably probably 20% of the time I had one galvanizing experience with it that made me arrive at the realization that it is fundamentally flawed. It is a motorized lock connected to WiFi with a back up of a standard key lock. As it turns out, if the Lockitron runs out of battery mid way through actuating the lock it will freeze the lock in that position. No amount of manual force though just the key backup will work. I spent several hours locked out of my apartment one night requiring emergency service from my complex management and asking a guy to wake up my neighbor so they could climb a ladder and break into my apartment via my balcony. Cameron and the Lockitron staff I interacted with was very good and understanding at all times- but I just could not trust the Lockitron any more. Since it was a battery hog and the battery dying midst turn is a critical problem and there was no notification whatsoever of the battery condition (at the time) AND I couldn't use the manual back up, I had to return it.

andrewtbham 12y ago
one possible way to solve this problem is to not initiate turning the lock if the battery is too low.
- StavrosK 12y ago
  You'd think they'd be doing that already, really.
- mikehmayer 12y ago
  Cameron did note how he was surprised the Lockitron worked that morning. Apparently they had some insight about the battery level that was not being relayed to me. I think they've since rectified that with a push notification- I never saw anything like that though.
- paulrov 12y ago
  or not having a battery powered lock in the first place… the concept just seems utterly absurd.

etsept 12y ago

> When Lockitron’s crowdfunding campaign rocketed beyond all expectations, one of our close advisors from the software world asked us why we couldn’t iterate Lockitron in batches. “Ship 1,000 units, pause, and learn from what users wanted in the hardware, then build another 1,000.” With limited resources, this simply isn’t possible; each Lockitron prototype was a $3,000-5,000 investment. I feel like I'm not understanding this passage. Is he saying iterating in batches of 1,000 is impossible because it would add $3-5 cost to a product that they sell for $179?

bravo22 12y ago
I think that's what he is saying but I disagree with his numbers. For 10 units machining plastic costs a lot of money. But you wouldn't do that for 1000 prototypes. You would use something like vacuum casting to make the housings and the gears are made from blanks and machined. It might cost you at WORST ~$300 (likely a lot less) for the 1,000 units.
deleted 12y ago
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ChuckMcM 12y ago

[Random question for dang, why the 'hn=true' cgi arg? Isn't the referrer field sufficient?] This was a great article. One of the things that is sorely under estimated by folks is that that "pipeline" from parts to product requires several dozen specially trained people to function well. As a small organization you have to train each group from start to finish to get to the point where the end product can ship. When I worked for Tut systems the manufacturing process was amazing, and where a software process is designed with testing to insure modules work, a hardware process is filled with processes that quickly identify problems before they get assembled into the product. Very rewarding though, and very doable, you just have to budget the time to do it and go in knowing you are training up a pipeline. There is no "magic" manufacturer that can take your idea and make it.

dang 12y ago
> Random question for dang, why the 'hn=true' cgi arg? The submitter added it to get around the dupe detector. The article was previously posted (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8028073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8028073). Since the previous post had no discussion, and wasn't killed by flags or by a moderator, the repost is ok.
evan_ 12y ago
> Isn't the referrer field sufficient? referer isn't sent in a lot of cases, including when a link on an HTTPS page goes to an HTTP page.

akehrer 12y ago

This is what technical debt looks like on the hardware side, missed deadlines and quality issues. Kudos to Cameron and the Lockitron folks for sharing their experience. I think bravo22 already covered some of the choices they made up front that got them in to trouble. It appears they didn't have the knowledge or experience to put a good plan together when they suddenly had to scale from 1000 or so units to multiple thousands. Here are a few (more) reasons: 1. Unaware of the environment. bravo22 already touched on the existing deadbolt standard and current products on the shelf. Whether they knew about these or not, it sounds like they chose to go in to production with their prototype (buggy) design instead of sourcing or modifying an existing solution. 2. Lack of specific knowledge. They expressed difficulty meshing the electronic and mechanical parts of their system. There are plenty of engineers that have electro-mechanical design experience that they could have leaned on, either hired on to do the redesign or to guide them in the right direction for things like gear-train torque calcs, material selection and fabrication methods (think redesigning a part for injection molding), power consumption calcs, part count reduction... Much of this may only be a Google search away, but if they don't have enough knowledge to know how to apply it correctly then that leaves them at the mercy of either fate or their suppliers. 3. Documentation. "While there is some truth to this, making hardware at scale is still incredibly difficult — if not for the actual physical manufacturing itself but for the compounding complexity of suppliers, tooling and testing." You need good documentation. Part drawings with realistic tolerances that produce parts that make functional assemblies. Work instructions that spell out things like order of operations, screw torque specifications, inline QC checks, etc. The documentation is often your contract with the supplier and if it's poor or not well thought out then the product quality suffers. These guys are going through an awesome trial by fire. They have a well funded, very public, product that they are trying to turn out and they should be commended for sticking with it for that last two years, and for being willing to talk about their challenges. Just like any other start-up, succeed or fail, they're going to be a better position when they do it again.

mrchess 12y ago

The only reason I bought this initially is because the YC team made a comment like "we've been using this for a while and it's awesome". It made me believe they had already done a lot of testing on the product, and that it was in production use. After the first year it became clear the Lockitron was just an idea. I have no idea why the YC team made a testimonial for it as if it were a finished product. The second year the e-mail updates were constantly "X is wrong and we are fixing it. We want to make the best product possible." Blah blah. Yeah, whatever. What it comes down to is that Lockitrons entire campaign was misleading, from their website, to the YouTube videos, to the Kickstarter -- the entire company is smoke and mirrors. The company is really good at explaining why things are wrong, but is terrible at actually fixing them. My frustration stems from them constantly promising things, but missing their deadlines by months, and in this case, years. Not once, but several times. I cancelled my order a while ago, the Lockitron brand is destroyed in my mind, and I have been hesitant to back any hardware projects ever since. I really wanted to believe.

sheetjs 12y ago
Out of curiosity: if they weren't YC, would you be more or less skeptical of the claim? I'm wondering whether you bought it because you believed the team (based on your understanding of the problem and solution) or because you believed in YC
- goldenkey 12y ago
  I bought it because of YC comments. I was sorely disappointed when the wifi unlock did not work like it was stated because of the battery drain. I returned it and have just made my own with a wired arduino. Faster, instant unlock, and no batteries to worry about :)
JacobAldridge 12y ago
Question for you for goldenkey below: Do you mean YC or HN? The YC team, while growing, is still a fairly small collective of amazingly brilliant people. The HN team is, at the end of the day, largely anonymous people on the internet. (Albeit the most amazingly brilliant collective of largely anonymous people on the internet I've ever come across.)

mrchess 12y ago

This article is just like all the e-mail updates they send. Long winded excuses with no results. "X is broken, we are trying to fix it so that we live up to our high standard. We are excited to see what is next and will ship soon." They have been singing the same song for 2+ years. Personally I could care less about their delays. My beef with the company is that EVERY update they lead on customers, saying "We're almost there!". No, you're not. I cancelled my order after the 4th delay.

mikeash 12y ago
They're terrible with providing updates. I'm amazed. My dashboard still says that my unit is anticipated to ship in May 2014, and this is far from the first time they've gone past the shipping estimate without a word to me. How hard is it to write some code that checks for shipping estimates that are about to become false, updates them, and notifies the people in question?

uxtapose 12y ago

I'm curious if Lockitron is still in use at the YC offices, 649 days later: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4602821 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4602821

paulrov 12y ago
> presumably because you use your phone for so many other things whereas most keys do nothing but get you into a single building This logic is utterly bizarre, surely your work key is on the same keychain as your house key…

dm2 12y ago

Rather than WiFi built into the device, why not using something like ZigBee (what the Nest Protect uses to talk between devices) to connect to a small WiFi enabled plug that fits into an electrical outlet? Would this work? If the battery life is still a problem then I wouldn't have a problem with having a detachable module for the Nest that can be removed once a week and manually recharged.

kjackson2012 12y ago

TLDR: we didn't know what we were doing when we started, and we learned a lot along the way. Unfortunately this came at the expense of our customers.

joosters 12y ago
The way that they describe how they learned must irritate backers as well. "We soon learned" ... "It quickly became apparent" ... if this learning process was quick, how come you discovered none of it until after you took everyone's money?

trimtab 12y ago

Low power WiFi can be done. I've installed sensors that run xmit WiFi and run on a pair of C cells for years. But a large concern with Lockitron is their dependence on Electric Imp. Because when Electric Imp fails, Lockitron loses access to all their customer's locks.

xorcist 12y ago

It would be interesting to know what the VC pitch for this product was. It's absolutely a cool product, but there are some hard problems to solve there, so it's a mystery to me why one would on top of that start on the difficult consumer market. (As a consumer myself, my immediate reaction is that a battery operated deadbolt for my door is far, far down the list of gadgets I lust for. It's so far down the list it's not even on the list. The ability for a third party company to operate my door lock is even on the list of things I'd pay to avoid. I just imagine there to be a nest of insurance liabilities there and I wouldn't want to touch something where that wasn't worked out first.) At best if this product really worked out, you'd have a small company selling thousands (not hundreds of thousands) of units to consumers with all the support liabilities that entails. Not something that usually thrills investors. Normally you would see such a company start out with high margin stuff where installations are built on a case basis anyway. To make it more concrete, here's an example: Step one: Decide that the app is your core product. Start working with an existing electronic doorlock system. Step two: Sell to offices. Maybe hotels. A flashy app could very well be enough to tip potential sales in your direction. Develop functionality where the app gives you an edge (could be integration with AD, useful revocation, whatever). Step three: Either get acquired by a giant in the business ("profit") or spread out to alarm systems. Those are ugly and hard to use. Use this leverage to get a foot in the notoriously difficult consumer market and grow from there. The underlying ideas here are that existing players in this space are notoriously bad at software, and that you should stick to use cases where electric locks or sensors are already in place and play off that. But perhaps this niche is already taken by Nest and that's why they went for this particular consumer niche? I don't know but it would sure be interesting to read a future post mortem analysis, if things turn out that way.

post_break 12y ago

I have a danalock and it's been rock solid. Undercut the lockitron on price, and it shipped. I've been using it for 6 months and so far the only hiccup was bluetooth compatibility until my phone got an update. I'm surprised there isn't a "Nest" for portable locks. It seems so simple. Turn a tumbler, that's it. It's not rocket science. The danalock isn't perfect, and there's an added cost for Z-wave but I think it's one of the best options out there for someone not wanting to replace their entire lock. (apartment or renters)

dkarl 12y ago

I'm very frustrated by the house door keyless entry systems on the market, having just ordered a Kevo despite being underwhelmed and a little bit concerned by the Amazon reviews. It blows my mind (in a bad way) to see eager buyers waiting for neophytes to get acquainted with the business of hardware while the keyless entry system for my car has worked perfectly for five years now. It seems like it would go so much better for consumers if a company in the automobile industry would spin off a unit to tackle the problem. They have people with all the right experience, not just with the manufacturing challenges described in the article but with ergonomics, testing for durability, and security. I'm sure there's an economic or business reason why it's unfolding the way it is, but that doesn't reduce my frustration. So many things feel backward about it. Starting with a cheap, bolt-on almost-solution? That doesn't seem right for a part of your home that you interact with every day. Using consumers as beta testers? That feels wrong for a security device that controls access to your home and everything you own. Developing a home keyless entry system without exploiting the human capital developed on successful keyless entry systems for cars? Definitely the hard way. It seems like the right way for a home keyless entry system to be developed would be for a company with lots of resources and relevant experience to develop a reliable, durable, convenient solution and then work on bringing the cost down from a thousand bucks to something reasonable. Instead, we have little companies trying to scrape by selling not-quite-there products at early adopter prices. (I paid over $200 for the Kevo despite Amazon reviews reporting, among other things, accidental engagement of the deadbolt while the door is swinging shut.) I don't hold any of this against Lockitron. They're taking the route they are out of necessity, and I'm grateful for it, because without them and other upstarts, the market wouldn't be moving forward at all. At this point I feel conflicted, because I'd hate to see their work rewarded by getting blown out of the water by a bigger, better-funded competitor, but on the other hand, that seems like the fastest way for me to get a product I really like. (As a final note/aside, determining intent to unlock the door is an unsolvable problem with traditional door hardware. Usability is going to suck until all the lock/latch/knob hardware is redesigned for keyless entry. Everything until then is just intermediate steps until home hardware catches up to the standard set by automobiles.)

HardwareLover 12y ago

The difficulty of making connected hardware products and the failure of crowdfunded hardware projects/products are not new. The controversy surrounding crowdfunded hardware tend to come and go, and different allegations--from fraud to failure of products--take center stage each time. Generally, these allegations come about because of the shipping/delivery delays, and there are a whole bunch of factors that contribute to the delays, such as unrealistic expectations on the part of the inventor -- what the startup hopes to deliver in a product (eg. 10 high specification features packed into a keychain sized device) versus what current technologies and materials can actually do (eg. 5 high spec features in a palm-sized device). Another factor is the sophistication of a product. In general (from conversations with project managers who worked at Asian OEMs/ODMs), the typical time taken to develop and build a product (of similar quality to iProducts) takes at least 12-18 months. Unless your product can be whiteboxed (or a similar product has been done before), this is the typical minimum time-frame required to build consumer electronics. And if your product falls under a new category (eg. key-sized food scanners), then more time will be required to research, develop and find the right technologies/materials to build the product. The product is not impossible to build, but just requires more time to make it happen. Of course, the inventor can turn to any factory in Shenzhen to manufacture the product (which may agree to a shorter manufacturing time-frame in order to get your business), but what you get eventually is a product that doesn't work well after investing a large sum of money (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/07/how-one-kickstarter-project-squandered-3-5-million/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/07/how-one-kickstarter-p...). The reason why hardware takes a long time to make and bring to market is because, unlike software, after the molding is done, the product needs to undergo many iterations, testing, certifications, blah blah blah... Also, before a product is shipped, at least over 30 key decisions typically need to be made and over 400 tasks need to be completed in sequence at different stages--and missing a task may result in weeks-long delay. For software developers looking to make hardware and have no previous hardware-making experience, suggest you involve someone familiar with the manufacturing process and pitfalls right from the start (eg. product concept stage). The person could be an in-house or external expert, and by involving the person early, you can ensure that your design/specs/expectations are feasible --> in turn giving a realistic manufacturing time-frame. If you need to get an estimation of the time needed for your hardware product development, check out this SaaS navigation tool: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jlim/2014/07/08/the-new-hwtrek-guides-hardware-projects-from-idea-to-production-in-asia/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jlim/2014/07/08/the-new-hwtrek-g....

kamilah381 12y ago

It's good to see hardware startups be open about the challenges of being a hardware startup.