4 ms·

Hiroshima is far from unambiguous!

evgen 12y ago
No, Hiroshima was pretty unambiguous. Nagasaki is a bit of a stretch, but you have to be pretty revisionist in your view of history and the state of the world in '45 to doubt its necessity (we have one, it works, and we can deliver it) vs. the second (we have more than one, capitulate or die in flames...)
- walshemj 12y ago
  Agreed would any sane president look at the generals projected 98% wastage rate for the first 5 waves ashore for operation Olympic and think well this new weapon could force a surrender but no I will give America her own Verdun or Somme what's 1/2 a million dead GI's and Squaddie's.
  - batbomb 12y ago
    Of course, this assumes the case that also other weapons hadn't been developed as well. One of my favorite weapons, where my username is derived, was actually very effective in it's own right. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb Of course, a bat bomb wasn't a sure thing, but Fat man was much more complex than little boy, which wasn't as efficient, and we didn't have much more nuclear material than a few bombs worth at the time. So, in hindsight, I don't think it's easy to say whether or not the atom bomb was absolutely necessary to ultimately prevent many lives (on both sides) from being lost. I do believe it was very effective to that end, however, with the side effect of letting the nuclear genie out of the bottle.
    - walshemj 12y ago
      Actually 1 the production line for nukes was gearing up at this point in time and 2 traditional firestorm raid killed more people than Hiroshima
    - Scramblejams 12y ago
      That weapon is so weird. So incredibly weird. Just what you'd expect from a Pennsylvania dentist-cum-weapons researcher, I guess? Thanks for pointing it out!
- gwern 12y ago
  I think you rather exaggerate the case for both Hiroshima & Nagasaki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombing...
- danielharan 12y ago
  Hiroshima was only necessary if it was the only way to get Japan to capitulate. This ignores rumours of back-channel diplomatic dealing that could have seen through a less humiliating exit for Japan.
  - wtbob 12y ago
    The entire point of unconditional surrender was to humiliate Germany and Japan for starting the largest war yet known to man, leading to the deaths of tens of millions of human beings.
    - danielharan 12y ago
      Humiliating leaders and nations is not a valid reason to kill under most ethical systems. It certainly does not fall under the precepts for a "just war".
- maaku 12y ago
  Neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki had any effect on the Japanese leadership of the time, as minutes of government meetings show. The nuclear attacks paled in comparison to the firebombings or larger cities such as Tokyo. What ended the war was Soviet invasion. Apparently Japan would rather surrender to the USA than face a post-war country divided on two fronts as Germany was.
  - Mandatum 12y ago
    That's something I haven't heard before. I was taught in school the bombings were pretty much what ended it. Would you recommend any books? I've found a very interesting article in the Boston here: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/07/why_did_japan_surrender/?page=full http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/07/...
    - Scramblejams 12y ago
      This has been discussed here before, for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5813776 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5813776

evgen 12y ago

No, Hiroshima was pretty unambiguous. Nagasaki is a bit of a stretch, but you have to be pretty revisionist in your view of history and the state of the world in '45 to doubt its necessity (we have one, it works, and we can deliver it) vs. the second (we have more than one, capitulate or die in flames...)

walshemj 12y ago
Agreed would any sane president look at the generals projected 98% wastage rate for the first 5 waves ashore for operation Olympic and think well this new weapon could force a surrender but no I will give America her own Verdun or Somme what's 1/2 a million dead GI's and Squaddie's.
- batbomb 12y ago
  Of course, this assumes the case that also other weapons hadn't been developed as well. One of my favorite weapons, where my username is derived, was actually very effective in it's own right. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb Of course, a bat bomb wasn't a sure thing, but Fat man was much more complex than little boy, which wasn't as efficient, and we didn't have much more nuclear material than a few bombs worth at the time. So, in hindsight, I don't think it's easy to say whether or not the atom bomb was absolutely necessary to ultimately prevent many lives (on both sides) from being lost. I do believe it was very effective to that end, however, with the side effect of letting the nuclear genie out of the bottle.
  - walshemj 12y ago
    Actually 1 the production line for nukes was gearing up at this point in time and 2 traditional firestorm raid killed more people than Hiroshima
  - Scramblejams 12y ago
    That weapon is so weird. So incredibly weird. Just what you'd expect from a Pennsylvania dentist-cum-weapons researcher, I guess? Thanks for pointing it out!
gwern 12y ago
I think you rather exaggerate the case for both Hiroshima & Nagasaki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombing...
danielharan 12y ago
Hiroshima was only necessary if it was the only way to get Japan to capitulate. This ignores rumours of back-channel diplomatic dealing that could have seen through a less humiliating exit for Japan.
- wtbob 12y ago
  The entire point of unconditional surrender was to humiliate Germany and Japan for starting the largest war yet known to man, leading to the deaths of tens of millions of human beings.
  - danielharan 12y ago
    Humiliating leaders and nations is not a valid reason to kill under most ethical systems. It certainly does not fall under the precepts for a "just war".
maaku 12y ago
Neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki had any effect on the Japanese leadership of the time, as minutes of government meetings show. The nuclear attacks paled in comparison to the firebombings or larger cities such as Tokyo. What ended the war was Soviet invasion. Apparently Japan would rather surrender to the USA than face a post-war country divided on two fronts as Germany was.
- Mandatum 12y ago
  That's something I haven't heard before. I was taught in school the bombings were pretty much what ended it. Would you recommend any books? I've found a very interesting article in the Boston here: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/07/why_did_japan_surrender/?page=full http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/07/...
  - Scramblejams 12y ago
    This has been discussed here before, for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5813776 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5813776