6 ms·

Are Uber and Lyft responsible for reducing DUIs?

61 points by robg 12y ago

GeorgeOrr 12y ago
I particularly like that I don't have to deal with cash while tipsy and in the dark of night. I've never used Lyft, but I have used Uber and usually find them them be quick and very service oriented. From what I've heard Lyft is given them competition in both ways, so I look forward to trying them as well. Far better than any cab I've ever taken.
- AlexMax 12y ago
  The cabs I've used in the last few years have all had credit card swipers in the car. I figured this would be a universal feature of any moderately populated cities' cab system in 2014.
  - GeorgeOrr 12y ago
    The way Uber works is that they already have my credit card on file. I don't have to fumble with the card or my wallet either.
  - ska 12y ago
    It seems to be fairly universal, but cabbies also drag their feet a lot on using them, in my experience. Whether this is because the remote units are fiddly and slow, or they just don't like having a paper trail on the tip & fare, I don't know.
  - jpb0104 12y ago
    I've been in cabs where they give you a hard time about paying with credit cards, I'm assuming because of the fees or they'd rather deal with cash maybe under the table?
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - minimaxir 12y ago
    Some cabs "strongly encourage" the use of cash, since there are no fees paid to the credit card company. Using the 2013 NYC Taxi data that was posted earlier, the amount of people who pay with cash vs. amount of people who pay with credit card is about 50:50. Here's a quick spreadsheet of the distribution: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EaP9LJ7i1MPREuypejOrvICW1QfY_UHWJw9AB6xlg1s/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EaP9LJ7i1MPREuypejOr...
  - monksy 12y ago
    Not all cabs want to use it because 1. it's recorded and 2. "fees" that they don't want to pay. The strategy used in Chicago when a credit card machine isn't working is just to tell them you don't have cash and you're walking out if they won't accept a card ("for a 'broken machine'") Magically it starts working again. [The city of Chicago mandates that they must be able to accept credit cards]
  - clarkm 12y ago
    Yet almost every time they discourage you from paying with a credit card. And even if they don't, there's a good chance they'll try to make you pay with Square or something (at least in SF).
- robg 12y ago
  Exactly my experience coming home late from the office. I call an Uber, leave my building when it arrives, get into a vehicle that at least has some trust associated with it, and I get out at my destination without my wallet ever leaving my pocket. Psychologically, trust and safety are huge multipliers. Most of the press I see on these companies is convenience-oriented. My experience, and with extensive self-defense training, is that the whole experience is just much safer. Unlike other modes of transportation, there are few times I'm really at-risk. I'm not standing outside trying to hail a taxi or going on the subway or walking through a park. I'm not getting into an unknown vehicle. And I'm not having to pull out my wallet.
- capkutay 12y ago
  I have ZERO sympathy for San Francisco cabs. Even with credit card swipers in the back, the cab drivers typically pressure you to pay cash. I know there's a difference between pressuring a customer and kindly asking them to use cash if possible. It was certainly the former. I've had cases where the cab driver told me upfront he wouldn't drive me if I paid with credit card, going so far as driving me to an ATM so I can get him cash as though I OWED them a tip. Uber/lyft disrupted an industry infected with laziness and bad attitudes.
  - pavel_lishin 12y ago
    In New York, if the credit card reader in a cab is broken, by law the driver has to tell you before you get in. None of this "Oh, yeah, BY THE WAY, I have to drive you to an ATM now, and you guess whether the meter stays on while I do this."
  - doxcf434 12y ago
    Couldn't agree more. They often don't answer the phone, when you do get through to some Danny DeVito at the other end, you then have to explain where you are exactly (vs. GPS). ETAs for the drivers are normally wrong, they don't txt you are. I lived in Marin, and a cabbie required me to tip him 100% of the ride cost coming from SFO otherwise he wouldn't take me. Frequently getting back to Marin, from SF is a pain with cabs, they often won't take you. Yeah, so screw'em... they can work for uber/lyft, I tip them generously with cash in addition to the fare, much better that way.
    - forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
      > when you do get through to some Danny DeVito at the other end What does this mean?
      - eggnet 12y ago
        He's referring to this character played by Danny DeVito http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0027129/ http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0027129/
  - 12y ago
withdavidli 12y ago
While I hope this would be true, all the graphs tells me is that we're going back down to 2003-2005 levels of DUIs. There can be several causes for this, maybe education on not to DUI caused it, maybe less people can afford cars (just read an articles that teens/ people in their 20s have aren't buying cars as much as previous generations), or want to drive in cities like SF where a day's parking can cost more than $30, you have to circle around several blocks to find a free space. I do like the idea of not driving, and think the DUI rate will rapidly decrease once things like self driving cars better enable us to give up personal vehicles.
ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
It's just plotting the number of monthly arrests, that doesn't tell you much.
jxf 12y ago
It seems very difficult to conclude that Uber and Lyft are responsible for reducing DUIs from that graph. * There's already a downward trend well before Uber and Lyft come into play. * Even if the downward trend is stronger more recently, Waze also came into existence a few years ago. Maybe people were, e.g., downloading Waze and using it to find police cars beforehand. * The graph measures arrests, not incidents. So it could be that, for instance, police are getting laxer about DUI enforcement, rather than that people are driving drunk less. In short, there's too many confounding factors here to conclude that Lyft and Uber should get credit.
- jessaustin 12y ago
  So it could be that, for instance, police are getting laxer about DUI enforcement, rather than that people are driving drunk less. This may be true somewhere, but not anywhere that federal anti-DUI funds are tied to purchase of new vehicles and equipment. In those places, i.e. most of the nation, there is no laxity, even though there certainly should be.
paulhauggis 12y ago
I find it quite interesting that when private schools are mentioned as an alternative to some of the terrible public schools we have in the US, the HN majority (which I now need to mention as a whole, since most things are down voted if they don't fit the opinion of HN) goes crazy and talks about how anti-union this, etc. But, both Uber and Lyft are completely going around the taxi unions in many cities in the US by not paying regulatory fees and it's a-ok.
- 27182818284 12y ago
  >private schools are mentioned as an alternative to some of the terrible public schools Those debates don't have anything in common which is why you'll probably receive downvotes. For example, voucher money goes directly from the government to a school. 85% of private schools are religious organizations. Etc. They just aren't the same animals. It is akin to saying a lightbulb is a transistor because they both use electricity. Though true, that misses a lot of detail.
- dang 12y ago
  > most things are down voted if they don't fit the opinion of HN There is no such thing as "the opinion of HN". The community is divided on most issues. Different constituencies upvote and downvote different things. There's a bias on some issues, like NSA/Snowden (albeit with a substantial dissenting minority). But on typical left vs. right issues, my sense is that the community is about evenly split, and so are the complaints of bias.
nostromo 12y ago
I doubt it has anything to do with Uber/Lyft specifically and everything to do with the availability of cabs. So, another way of framing this: how many DUI deaths have been caused by artificial limitations on the number of cab licences over the years? In Seattle when I was in my early 20s, it was nearly impossible to call or catch a cab when the bars closed, so often we just walked home. And on New Year's Eve? Forget about it... Incidentally, walking in a city while drunk is also dangerous. For about a third of U.S. pedestrian deaths, the pedestrian was drunk, according to one study. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/drunk-walking-leads-pedestrians-fatalities http://bigstory.ap.org/article/drunk-walking-leads-pedestria...
- robg 12y ago
  Isn't the purpose of Uber/Lyft exactly about increasing the number of "cabs"? I don't see a distinction here, your explanation is coincident with the causal factors driving the effect.
  - YokoZar 12y ago
    The implication of this reasoning is that local government policies designed to protect incumbent cab drivers have been doing more than creating tension when Uber wants to enter the market -- they've been literally killing people for years.
    - robg 12y ago
      It wouldn't be the first time governments are biased toward entrenched interests that kill (e.g., tobacco and alcohol). If I were Uber facing regulation, I'd drive hard after these studies. Let governments explain why they favor more risks, higher costs, and worse service.
      - robg 12y ago
        Shows my bias as a researcher. Seems even better to market in this direction and against cabs. Give discounts for Ubers called from bars/clubs during nightlife hours. Team up with MADD. Give friends/bartenders a way to enter an address on an Uber they call for someone else. Even a way to "make Uber your designated driver" before the night begins.
danso 12y ago
Spoiler alert. The answer to the headline is, "Who knows? But nice to wonder, eh?" > Again, caveats are in order. We've simply plotted arrests on a timeline here; we haven't adjusted for changes in the city's population, or bar scene, or the economy. Any number of other things may have changed in the city over the last few years affecting DUI arrests. It's possible police have changed how they conduct DUI stops and arrests, or that public pressure on them to crack down on DUIs has ebbed with time. Other changes in public transit service may have impacted alternative routes that bar-hoppers take home. It's also striking that San Francisco and Philadelphia show a steep and parallel rise in DUIs long before these services ever came to town; on both charts, it looks as if DUI numbers may be returning to an older normal as much as they've been falling. Perhaps these services have arrived on the market just in time to ride the benefits of an improving economy? (More theories on this welcome below as well). It's sad that traffic-desperate news sites have forgotten how to write a assertive, non-question headline...something like "Measuring ride-sharing's impact on DUIs requires more data" would do just fine.
- JetSpiegel 12y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline... continues to apply then. Nothing to see here.
Nursie 12y ago
Meh. This just sounds like a rehash of the Uber press release from a while back - http://blog.uber.com/tag/dui/ http://blog.uber.com/tag/dui/ I doubt they're having much impact, personally, unless in cities where there isn't much of a developed cab infrastructure already, and people drive for a night out. This probably doesn't describe anywhere outside the US.
parfe 12y ago
The interesting observation is how the economy correlates to dui arrests. Either through people maintaining their lifestyle but not being able to afford a cab or police departments reacting to cuts in funding. Crediting uber is a startup echo-chamber delusion.
vampirechicken 12y ago
More interesting to me are the statistics on drunk walking deaths. According to freakonomics.com, it is more dangerous to walk drunk then to drive drunk. I'd like to see those stats with the DUI stats.

61 points by robg 12y ago

I particularly like that I don't have to deal with cash while tipsy and in the dark of night. I've never used Lyft, but I have used Uber and usually find them them be quick and very service oriented. From what I've heard Lyft is given them competition in both ways, so I look forward to trying them as well. Far better than any cab I've ever taken.

AlexMax 12y ago
The cabs I've used in the last few years have all had credit card swipers in the car. I figured this would be a universal feature of any moderately populated cities' cab system in 2014.
- GeorgeOrr 12y ago
  The way Uber works is that they already have my credit card on file. I don't have to fumble with the card or my wallet either.
- ska 12y ago
  It seems to be fairly universal, but cabbies also drag their feet a lot on using them, in my experience. Whether this is because the remote units are fiddly and slow, or they just don't like having a paper trail on the tip & fare, I don't know.
- jpb0104 12y ago
  I've been in cabs where they give you a hard time about paying with credit cards, I'm assuming because of the fees or they'd rather deal with cash maybe under the table?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- minimaxir 12y ago
  Some cabs "strongly encourage" the use of cash, since there are no fees paid to the credit card company. Using the 2013 NYC Taxi data that was posted earlier, the amount of people who pay with cash vs. amount of people who pay with credit card is about 50:50. Here's a quick spreadsheet of the distribution: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EaP9LJ7i1MPREuypejOrvICW1QfY_UHWJw9AB6xlg1s/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EaP9LJ7i1MPREuypejOr...
- monksy 12y ago
  Not all cabs want to use it because 1. it's recorded and 2. "fees" that they don't want to pay. The strategy used in Chicago when a credit card machine isn't working is just to tell them you don't have cash and you're walking out if they won't accept a card ("for a 'broken machine'") Magically it starts working again. [The city of Chicago mandates that they must be able to accept credit cards]
- clarkm 12y ago
  Yet almost every time they discourage you from paying with a credit card. And even if they don't, there's a good chance they'll try to make you pay with Square or something (at least in SF).
robg 12y ago
Exactly my experience coming home late from the office. I call an Uber, leave my building when it arrives, get into a vehicle that at least has some trust associated with it, and I get out at my destination without my wallet ever leaving my pocket. Psychologically, trust and safety are huge multipliers. Most of the press I see on these companies is convenience-oriented. My experience, and with extensive self-defense training, is that the whole experience is just much safer. Unlike other modes of transportation, there are few times I'm really at-risk. I'm not standing outside trying to hail a taxi or going on the subway or walking through a park. I'm not getting into an unknown vehicle. And I'm not having to pull out my wallet.
capkutay 12y ago
I have ZERO sympathy for San Francisco cabs. Even with credit card swipers in the back, the cab drivers typically pressure you to pay cash. I know there's a difference between pressuring a customer and kindly asking them to use cash if possible. It was certainly the former. I've had cases where the cab driver told me upfront he wouldn't drive me if I paid with credit card, going so far as driving me to an ATM so I can get him cash as though I OWED them a tip. Uber/lyft disrupted an industry infected with laziness and bad attitudes.
- pavel_lishin 12y ago
  In New York, if the credit card reader in a cab is broken, by law the driver has to tell you before you get in. None of this "Oh, yeah, BY THE WAY, I have to drive you to an ATM now, and you guess whether the meter stays on while I do this."
- doxcf434 12y ago
  Couldn't agree more. They often don't answer the phone, when you do get through to some Danny DeVito at the other end, you then have to explain where you are exactly (vs. GPS). ETAs for the drivers are normally wrong, they don't txt you are. I lived in Marin, and a cabbie required me to tip him 100% of the ride cost coming from SFO otherwise he wouldn't take me. Frequently getting back to Marin, from SF is a pain with cabs, they often won't take you. Yeah, so screw'em... they can work for uber/lyft, I tip them generously with cash in addition to the fare, much better that way.
  - forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
    > when you do get through to some Danny DeVito at the other end What does this mean?
    - eggnet 12y ago
      He's referring to this character played by Danny DeVito http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0027129/ http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0027129/
- 12y ago

withdavidli 12y ago

While I hope this would be true, all the graphs tells me is that we're going back down to 2003-2005 levels of DUIs. There can be several causes for this, maybe education on not to DUI caused it, maybe less people can afford cars (just read an articles that teens/ people in their 20s have aren't buying cars as much as previous generations), or want to drive in cities like SF where a day's parking can cost more than $30, you have to circle around several blocks to find a free space. I do like the idea of not driving, and think the DUI rate will rapidly decrease once things like self driving cars better enable us to give up personal vehicles.

ulisesrmzroche 12y ago

It's just plotting the number of monthly arrests, that doesn't tell you much.

jxf 12y ago

It seems very difficult to conclude that Uber and Lyft are responsible for reducing DUIs from that graph. * There's already a downward trend well before Uber and Lyft come into play. * Even if the downward trend is stronger more recently, Waze also came into existence a few years ago. Maybe people were, e.g., downloading Waze and using it to find police cars beforehand. * The graph measures arrests, not incidents. So it could be that, for instance, police are getting laxer about DUI enforcement, rather than that people are driving drunk less. In short, there's too many confounding factors here to conclude that Lyft and Uber should get credit.

jessaustin 12y ago
So it could be that, for instance, police are getting laxer about DUI enforcement, rather than that people are driving drunk less. This may be true somewhere, but not anywhere that federal anti-DUI funds are tied to purchase of new vehicles and equipment. In those places, i.e. most of the nation, there is no laxity, even though there certainly should be.

paulhauggis 12y ago

I find it quite interesting that when private schools are mentioned as an alternative to some of the terrible public schools we have in the US, the HN majority (which I now need to mention as a whole, since most things are down voted if they don't fit the opinion of HN) goes crazy and talks about how anti-union this, etc. But, both Uber and Lyft are completely going around the taxi unions in many cities in the US by not paying regulatory fees and it's a-ok.

27182818284 12y ago
>private schools are mentioned as an alternative to some of the terrible public schools Those debates don't have anything in common which is why you'll probably receive downvotes. For example, voucher money goes directly from the government to a school. 85% of private schools are religious organizations. Etc. They just aren't the same animals. It is akin to saying a lightbulb is a transistor because they both use electricity. Though true, that misses a lot of detail.
dang 12y ago
> most things are down voted if they don't fit the opinion of HN There is no such thing as "the opinion of HN". The community is divided on most issues. Different constituencies upvote and downvote different things. There's a bias on some issues, like NSA/Snowden (albeit with a substantial dissenting minority). But on typical left vs. right issues, my sense is that the community is about evenly split, and so are the complaints of bias.

nostromo 12y ago

I doubt it has anything to do with Uber/Lyft specifically and everything to do with the availability of cabs. So, another way of framing this: how many DUI deaths have been caused by artificial limitations on the number of cab licences over the years? In Seattle when I was in my early 20s, it was nearly impossible to call or catch a cab when the bars closed, so often we just walked home. And on New Year's Eve? Forget about it... Incidentally, walking in a city while drunk is also dangerous. For about a third of U.S. pedestrian deaths, the pedestrian was drunk, according to one study. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/drunk-walking-leads-pedestrians-fatalities http://bigstory.ap.org/article/drunk-walking-leads-pedestria...

robg 12y ago
Isn't the purpose of Uber/Lyft exactly about increasing the number of "cabs"? I don't see a distinction here, your explanation is coincident with the causal factors driving the effect.
- YokoZar 12y ago
  The implication of this reasoning is that local government policies designed to protect incumbent cab drivers have been doing more than creating tension when Uber wants to enter the market -- they've been literally killing people for years.
  - robg 12y ago
    It wouldn't be the first time governments are biased toward entrenched interests that kill (e.g., tobacco and alcohol). If I were Uber facing regulation, I'd drive hard after these studies. Let governments explain why they favor more risks, higher costs, and worse service.
    - robg 12y ago
      Shows my bias as a researcher. Seems even better to market in this direction and against cabs. Give discounts for Ubers called from bars/clubs during nightlife hours. Team up with MADD. Give friends/bartenders a way to enter an address on an Uber they call for someone else. Even a way to "make Uber your designated driver" before the night begins.

danso 12y ago

Spoiler alert. The answer to the headline is, "Who knows? But nice to wonder, eh?" > Again, caveats are in order. We've simply plotted arrests on a timeline here; we haven't adjusted for changes in the city's population, or bar scene, or the economy. Any number of other things may have changed in the city over the last few years affecting DUI arrests. It's possible police have changed how they conduct DUI stops and arrests, or that public pressure on them to crack down on DUIs has ebbed with time. Other changes in public transit service may have impacted alternative routes that bar-hoppers take home. It's also striking that San Francisco and Philadelphia show a steep and parallel rise in DUIs long before these services ever came to town; on both charts, it looks as if DUI numbers may be returning to an older normal as much as they've been falling. Perhaps these services have arrived on the market just in time to ride the benefits of an improving economy? (More theories on this welcome below as well). It's sad that traffic-desperate news sites have forgotten how to write a assertive, non-question headline...something like "Measuring ride-sharing's impact on DUIs requires more data" would do just fine.

JetSpiegel 12y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline... continues to apply then. Nothing to see here.

Nursie 12y ago

Meh. This just sounds like a rehash of the Uber press release from a while back - http://blog.uber.com/tag/dui/ http://blog.uber.com/tag/dui/ I doubt they're having much impact, personally, unless in cities where there isn't much of a developed cab infrastructure already, and people drive for a night out. This probably doesn't describe anywhere outside the US.

parfe 12y ago

The interesting observation is how the economy correlates to dui arrests. Either through people maintaining their lifestyle but not being able to afford a cab or police departments reacting to cuts in funding. Crediting uber is a startup echo-chamber delusion.

vampirechicken 12y ago

More interesting to me are the statistics on drunk walking deaths. According to freakonomics.com, it is more dangerous to walk drunk then to drive drunk. I'd like to see those stats with the DUI stats.