5 ms·

Ask HN: How do you fire a startup employee?

• ionfish 17y ago
  Why do you need to be funny? What's wrong with an honest, clear explanation that you need to fire him, and the reasons why? Getting fired isn't (generally) a funny thing, and if you're an employer you should probably be considering the well-being of your employees (even if they're about to become ex-employees), not trying to make yourself feel better about the process by "making it go down easier" with a jokey dismissal.
  • zaph0d 17y ago
    I agree. I didn't mean jokey by funny. I meant informal. You are right, I was wrong.
  • philwelch 17y ago
    "Getting fired isn't (generally) a funny thing" Totally off-topic, but one time I did a crap summer job doing phone surveys. It turns out that I'm not very qualified for jobs that require being civil to people who are cussing me out. Getting fired wasn't funny, but the circumstances that led up to it certainly are.
    • clistctrl 17y ago
      wow, that needs way more explaination
      • philwelch 17y ago
        You'd be surprised how polite most people are with unsolicited calls. Most people just hang up. I worked there 30-35 hours a week for over a month until someone even cussed at me. You actually learn more than you'd think at that kind of job. You learn how it's difficult to distinguish between a male voice and the voice of a lifelong female smoker. You learn all kinds of fascinating regional accents. You learn how much fun it is for people to say bad things about companies they've had bad experiences with (some rich guy in Texas really had it in for Smith Barney). You learn that hockey fans don't like being interrupted during the Stanley Cup ("do you know what time it is! It's the Stanley Cup finals!"). (Drinking beer and watching sports does tend to give people the illusion that it's the most important thing in the world, which is probably where stadium riots come from.) You learn that some mothers feel a little insecure about not being able to judge the quality of the meat they buy. There's something that happens to people in customer service jobs where they have to be polite to people. Addressing people as "sir" and "ma'am" just gets habitual. One day I learned that habit isn't automatically broken when someone manages to trigger my "get into a cussing match" reflex. Some people will call you a son of a bitch for trying to do a survey with them on Father's Day. That wouldn't have bothered me, but some people have just the right type of voice and inflection to get my goat. Instinct got the better of me. When that happens, you learn that shouting "fuck you too, sir" into a phone loud enough for the entire call center to hear you is cause for summary termination. Going in there the next two Fridays to pick up my paychecks while getting the evil eye from the managers was oddly fun. It was around that time I learned that I was one of the few people there who didn't smoke weed to get by during the day. It might have mellowed me out enough to make more money. But I've also learned that having a bit more money isn't always as rewarding as having a story to tell.
        • clistctrl 17y ago
          its a pretty good story too
• philwelch 17y ago
  "Your programming skills are OK, but when it comes to delivering, you scored a blank. Apparently you've never shipped software before and seem to be more of a "software processes" zealot than a hacker. You'll probably do alright at a larger firm where you have a better chance to develop but you don't really fit what we need. We wish you the best of luck finding another job." I don't see any reason to be less honest with him than you're being with us. Save the hand-wringing over how to "nicely" fire someone for when you're big and rich enough to hire an HR department and get back to real work.
  • zaph0d 17y ago
    Thanks. That helped a lot. I really need to be honest with him.
    • DanielStraight 17y ago
      You should be straightforward and honest, but you shouldn't judge him. You don't need to give him a list of his faults. Simply tell him, "It's not working out; I'm letting you go. Best of luck in the future." IF he asks for more detail, give it, but criticize his performance NOT him. Do not tell him what he is ("you're a software processes zealot"). That's for him to figure out. Do not asses his motivations (something like, "you don't seem to care about...") or his experience ("you've never shipped software before"). Assess strictly his performance. Period. Even if he asks you to assess him. It is not your place to judge who someone is, what their values are or what they would be good at. It's your job to assess whether they are doing what you hired them to do. On a further note, if this surprises him in any way, there's a deeper problem. Employees should know at all times whether they are living up to expectations. If he wasn't, he should have known and had a chance to fix it. Further, I agree this should be done in person, and another more important point, it should be done privately. Do not call him out in front of his coworkers. Give him a chance to leave quietly without embarrassment.
• mbrubeck 17y ago
  Do it in person if possible, not by email. It's harder but it's more respectful of the fact that this is an important decision. And it's too easy to misinterpret tone in email.
  • zaph0d 17y ago
    I would have told that to him in person, but he bunked office again today.
    • davidw 17y ago
      Change the locks tonight?:-) It can wait a day, say it in person.
    • TallGuyShort 17y ago
      Use that to give yourself the gumption to fire him on the spot next time you see him. Don't be rude, of course, but it's all the more reason to be honest and up front and say, "Look - you haven't been able to deliver what we expected when we hired you. We were looking for ... but we've noticed that you're more... You might fit better at a larger corporation, but right now, we really need to let you go."
    • rubinelli 17y ago
      Then schedule a meeting. Tell him to be there early tomorrow because you need to talk, and then deliver the news face to face. Have a list of events in which he didn't perform as you expected him to, explain that while he had an acceptable performance, your company is too small to survive with less than absolutely stellar work, wish him best of luck, and say you are available if he needs references. I think being nice and respectful is much more important than being informal. In fact, I think informality may give the impression that you don't care.
• pclark 17y ago
  wow, firing via email. Man the hell up and take him aside, look him in the eye and explain the situation. You're a startup founder - lead from the front.
  • zaph0d 17y ago
    I completely understand. But as I have already said, I would have told that to him in person, but he bunked office again today. I am fed up with his lack of professionalism.
    • pclark 17y ago
      ring him and tell him to come in to chat.
    • lsc 17y ago
      you never want to fire someone in anger. the valley is small. Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't fire the guy. If he's not working out, and you don't fire him, it can sink the company. But the valley is small. there is no benefit to making him an enemy, and a non-zero chance it will hurt you significantly.
  • philwelch 17y ago
    I must have missed that part, but personally I think it's best in that kind of situation (firing someone or breaking up with a significant other--they're fairly similar) to write the person a letter (so you can deliberate over what exactly you want to communicate and how) and deliver it to them in person. Then you get the planning and precision of the written word along with the face time necessary.
• deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
• lsc 17y ago
  be gentile, but firm. Don't lie to him, but don't be an asshole or act like it's all his fault. The valley is very small. Like it or not, this guy will be the face of your company for some time to come. You will almost certainly work with someone else who knows that person in the future. Personally, when I have to fire someone, the way I see it, it was primarily my mistake. I chose the wrong person for the job. I mean, I'm still going to let them go, but I do it with the attitude that it was me who screwed up.
• igrekel 17y ago
  I agree with lot of posters but there is one point I haven't seen addressed so far: do you expect this to be a surprise for him? If not, you've probably done something wrong. Were your expectations made clear to him? Since I have had to fire someone in the past (not a pleasant experience even if it went well), when I announced it, it wasn't really a surprise to him, his attitude was more "it's sad but fair". But it went that way because I had a few discussions earlier about what I was expecting in terms of actions and how what he was doing was not meeting these expectations. Also make sure he knows which things you don't really care for right now and find unnecessary right now. It is possible he is not delivering because he is putting more energy on things you don't care for. Creating this shared vision is one of the most important things you need to learn when managing employees.
• zaph0d 17y ago
  Okay, thanks everyone for the wonderful advice. I have decided to tell him in person when he comes to the office again. I will not judge him and I will clearly tell him that he has not performed to my expectations. And no, I don't think it's going to be a surprise to him; I have given him ample ways to figure out that his ways of doing things (or not doing them) is wrong. By the way, just to clarify, I am not from the Valley (I wish), and the place is not that small :)
• budala123 17y ago
  Hacking sucks, BTW. You guys are always looking for grade A slaves and peons to fill these roles. But hey, you are the "Big Idea" people, the rest of us are little helots. Try walking a mile in the slave's shoes for a while, maybe you won't be so harsh. Here's a suggestion: maybe out-source to Bangalore? It's what the big boys are doing. Anyway, more to your point: Dear <loser>, <paragraph of lies follows below> we are very pleased with your work to date but due to a strategic rebalancing forced upon us quite suddenly by exogenous forces, we need to make some painful cutbacks. We have elected to pare back our newest hires, your position included. If the financial condition of our company improves, we would be happy to reconsider your employment at a later date. However, it is not certain if the situation will resolve itself in the short term and so I would advise looking for other positions in the interim. Let me say that it has been truly a pleasure to work with such a keen and incisive mind as yours. I hope there are no hard feelings between us. Best of luck in your future endeavours <fuck off and die you piece of shit. we hope never to see you again>. signed <greedy corporate asshole>
  • zaph0d 17y ago
    Haha! Now that was really funny. By the way, we never treated him as a slave. He was also promised a fair amount of equity.
• ismarc 17y ago
  Did he have a salary or associated pay for any of the work? Have you sat down and explained things to him yet (ie, how he is performing compared to what you were expecting)? If you haven't told him, he may have just misunderstood the primary focus. If he's been working for potential of equity only, let him retain that potential based on work already completed, or give him a reasonable payment of having worked for several months for free. I know I would not be willing to ever be in any sort of business arrangement with someone ever again after them getting months of free work from me and then going "oh, hey, nah, not working out, sorry we didn't tell you so you could correct it, and no you don't get to keep anything you've been working on, good luck!"
  • zaph0d 17y ago
    He did have a reasonable salary, so compensation is not a problem.