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Will this also be able to connect to non-Tor peers (via exit nodes)? One of the biggest problems for any peer-to-peer technology is the chicken-and-egg problem

by kijin 12y ago

Will this also be able to connect to non-Tor peers (via exit nodes)? One of the biggest problems for any peer-to-peer technology is the chicken-and-egg problem. You need to bring together a large number of users in a short time, or else everyone abandons your product because none of the friends/files/etc. they want are on the network. A BitTorrent client that can only connect to Tor-enabled peers is therefore doomed from the beginning. You need to be able to connect to all the existing non-Tor peers without compromising your own anonymity, while also providing plenty of incentives for other nodes to switch to Tor (i.e. presumed immunity from the MAFIAA). Maybe after 10 years when everyone is anonymous, then you can drop this "compatibility layer" and go entirely dark. For a similar reason, I support your decision to use Tor instead of I2P. The latter's design might be easier to integrate into a BitTorrent client, but the former has many more users and much greater network capacity, is backed by an organization that will fight to the death to protect its integrity, and above all, just happens to be much better known.

synchronise 12y ago
The latter's network capacity scales up with each new user due to its design, which is far more efficient than the separate client-relay design that Tor uses. And simply because Tor has the benefit of a greater pool of users doesn't mean that the network would benefit from the addition of this program. Tor is already being extensively used in other ways and the network is quite congested already. The addition of this extra data, plus from the scores of users that will strip out their relay to increase bandwidth for them, will make Tor a less attractive option for what it's being used for currently. It should be noted that Vuze (Azareus) has a comprehensive guide on how to get their program working with I2P, and it also allows the user to mix torrents from both I2P and the clearnet, so such transitional software packages are possible and do exist. EDIT: There is also an issue which arises when you run a relay on a hidden service. https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2014-July/033819.html https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2014-July/03...
- kijin 12y ago
  OP's proposal is not just to add bandwidth-heavy clients to the Tor network, it is to add a large number of relays by making every BitTorrent client a Tor relay. OP also devotes two long sections on why he thinks his program will not harm the rest of the Tor network. Sure, there are issues to overcome before this can become reality. But the Tor network has improved by leaps and bounds over the last few years, and there's no reason to be pessimistic about its ability to handle a lot more traffic. Sure, I2P already works reasonably well with BitTorrent. But what's wrong with trying to achieve a similar result with Tor?
  - synchronise 12y ago
    The architecture is already there with I2P, it has proven to be efficient over I2P, Tor already has extensive use as an anonymous web browsing tool, whilst adding relays to each client would help mitigate Tor's network constraints somewhat, it would still degrade performance on the network to a degree due to the nature of how it anonymizes data. There's also the issue of not being able to run a client and a relay AND remain completely anonymous, as I posted earlier. The I2P network is also being underutilised at this point, it has a lot of potential for growth especially in this area. It makes sense to use that potential to grow a specific specialised network, rather than potentially impact an already perfectly functioning network that Tor currently is.

by kijin 12y ago

synchronise 12y ago

The latter's network capacity scales up with each new user due to its design, which is far more efficient than the separate client-relay design that Tor uses. And simply because Tor has the benefit of a greater pool of users doesn't mean that the network would benefit from the addition of this program. Tor is already being extensively used in other ways and the network is quite congested already. The addition of this extra data, plus from the scores of users that will strip out their relay to increase bandwidth for them, will make Tor a less attractive option for what it's being used for currently. It should be noted that Vuze (Azareus) has a comprehensive guide on how to get their program working with I2P, and it also allows the user to mix torrents from both I2P and the clearnet, so such transitional software packages are possible and do exist. EDIT: There is also an issue which arises when you run a relay on a hidden service. https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2014-July/033819.html https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2014-July/03...

kijin 12y ago
OP's proposal is not just to add bandwidth-heavy clients to the Tor network, it is to add a large number of relays by making every BitTorrent client a Tor relay. OP also devotes two long sections on why he thinks his program will not harm the rest of the Tor network. Sure, there are issues to overcome before this can become reality. But the Tor network has improved by leaps and bounds over the last few years, and there's no reason to be pessimistic about its ability to handle a lot more traffic. Sure, I2P already works reasonably well with BitTorrent. But what's wrong with trying to achieve a similar result with Tor?
- synchronise 12y ago
  The architecture is already there with I2P, it has proven to be efficient over I2P, Tor already has extensive use as an anonymous web browsing tool, whilst adding relays to each client would help mitigate Tor's network constraints somewhat, it would still degrade performance on the network to a degree due to the nature of how it anonymizes data. There's also the issue of not being able to run a client and a relay AND remain completely anonymous, as I posted earlier. The I2P network is also being underutilised at this point, it has a lot of potential for growth especially in this area. It makes sense to use that potential to grow a specific specialised network, rather than potentially impact an already perfectly functioning network that Tor currently is.