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No, it doesn't work that way at all. Buzz and alarmist headlines might capture our attention for a day or two, but they don't have a lasting impact. As long a

by sebular 12y ago

No, it doesn't work that way at all. Buzz and alarmist headlines might capture our attention for a day or two, but they don't have a lasting impact. As long as no further evidence or testimony surfaces, this will be forgotten by almost everybody within a week, and in a month or two, nobody will even think about it except for the accuser and the accused. Want proof? You raped me. Remember when you did that? Hey everybody! Beachstartup actually raped me. It definitely happened and I'm very traumatized by it. Not a day goes by where I don't encounter some trigger that reminds me of the time that beachstartup raped me. See? Nothing happened. Both in meatspace and online, accusations that aren't backed by evidence might gain temporary attention, but they won't last. You certainly can't just decide to make someone's reputation "instantly, completely and forever ruined" on a passing whim.

jsmthrowaway 12y ago
Not even remotely true. A friend of a friend was accused of something like this and made TechCrunch, and still, four years later, gets death threats in his e-mail and people e-mailing his employer.
- sebular 12y ago
  You've given me no reason to believe that you're not exaggerating, nor have you given me a reason to believe that your friend's friend didn't actually rape someone.
  - Aqueous 12y ago
    "nor have you given me a reason to believe that your friend's friend didn't actually rape someone." - so it's guilty until proven innocent now?
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      There is a difference between what we should assume when meting out punishment and what we should assume when producing examples for an argument.
      - Aqueous 12y ago
        No - I think the presumption of innocence applies in both cases, ethically and legally. That's why it has been codified into law - because it a sturdy principle that preserves a free society where someone isn't guilty merely because they can be arbitrarily accused. Believing in the presumption of innnocence socially as well as legally protects us from the government and it protects us from each other.
        dllthomas 12y ago
        You are confusing the distinction I was making (determining whether to punish an individual versus more general reasoning) with another (a judicial setting versus a more general social one). Social reactions can still be punishment, and when they are they certainly still deserve some measure of presumption of innocence. Adhering to a presumption of innocence when trying to determine facts about the world more generally is obviously nonsense.
        Aqueous 12y ago
        I think the world would be a lot better place, with many fewer religious wars, if people remained skeptical and agnostic about a claim until given actual, firm evidence. I don't think that's obviously nonsense.
        dllthomas 12y ago
        That is presuming nothing. That is an entirely different matter than presuming innocence. As I read it, the comment you initially replied to basically said (in a manner not entirely clear or sympathetic) "you are assuming facts not in evidence." I was not advocating presuming guilt in any context - that would be even more nonsensical.
        Aqueous 12y ago
        If you believe that people are born in a state of innocence, meaning they have not committed a crime, as I do, then you believe they are innocent until they have been shown to be guilty. In this case a presumption of innocence means "things are the same as I understand them to be based on previous evidence until I am shown that they are now different." You are not born guilty so you must remain in a state of innocence until you commit a crime. And because that crime must be proven you are innocent until proven guilty. In this case neutrality is the same thing as believing in someone's innocence. This is fundamentally different than, for example, the distinction between a lack of a belief of God and a belief that there is no God - because we know something about people, all people, from experience, whereas we know nothing about God.
- zorpner 12y ago
  How terrible for him, to have to experience what every woman in tech with a prominent online presence has to endure.
  - alexjeffrey 12y ago
    how about we imagine a world where neither accused rapists nor women in tech were harassed? that seems like the ideal we should be aiming for, not trying to belittle the case of one group just because another is in a similar situation.

by sebular 12y ago

jsmthrowaway 12y ago

Not even remotely true. A friend of a friend was accused of something like this and made TechCrunch, and still, four years later, gets death threats in his e-mail and people e-mailing his employer.

sebular 12y ago
You've given me no reason to believe that you're not exaggerating, nor have you given me a reason to believe that your friend's friend didn't actually rape someone.
- Aqueous 12y ago
  "nor have you given me a reason to believe that your friend's friend didn't actually rape someone." - so it's guilty until proven innocent now?
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    There is a difference between what we should assume when meting out punishment and what we should assume when producing examples for an argument.
    - Aqueous 12y ago
      No - I think the presumption of innocence applies in both cases, ethically and legally. That's why it has been codified into law - because it a sturdy principle that preserves a free society where someone isn't guilty merely because they can be arbitrarily accused. Believing in the presumption of innnocence socially as well as legally protects us from the government and it protects us from each other.
      - dllthomas 12y ago
        You are confusing the distinction I was making (determining whether to punish an individual versus more general reasoning) with another (a judicial setting versus a more general social one). Social reactions can still be punishment, and when they are they certainly still deserve some measure of presumption of innocence. Adhering to a presumption of innocence when trying to determine facts about the world more generally is obviously nonsense.
        Aqueous 12y ago
        I think the world would be a lot better place, with many fewer religious wars, if people remained skeptical and agnostic about a claim until given actual, firm evidence. I don't think that's obviously nonsense.
        dllthomas 12y ago
        That is presuming nothing. That is an entirely different matter than presuming innocence. As I read it, the comment you initially replied to basically said (in a manner not entirely clear or sympathetic) "you are assuming facts not in evidence." I was not advocating presuming guilt in any context - that would be even more nonsensical.
        Aqueous 12y ago
        If you believe that people are born in a state of innocence, meaning they have not committed a crime, as I do, then you believe they are innocent until they have been shown to be guilty. In this case a presumption of innocence means "things are the same as I understand them to be based on previous evidence until I am shown that they are now different." You are not born guilty so you must remain in a state of innocence until you commit a crime. And because that crime must be proven you are innocent until proven guilty. In this case neutrality is the same thing as believing in someone's innocence. This is fundamentally different than, for example, the distinction between a lack of a belief of God and a belief that there is no God - because we know something about people, all people, from experience, whereas we know nothing about God.
zorpner 12y ago
How terrible for him, to have to experience what every woman in tech with a prominent online presence has to endure.
- alexjeffrey 12y ago
  how about we imagine a world where neither accused rapists nor women in tech were harassed? that seems like the ideal we should be aiming for, not trying to belittle the case of one group just because another is in a similar situation.