4 ms·

Isn't it much more likely that they're building this network for their own internal needs? Police cars have computers, fire department personnel sometimes need

Isn't it much more likely that they're building this network for their own internal needs? Police cars have computers, fire department personnel sometimes need to download building plans on site, etc.

cwh 12y ago
you are clearly not a [paranoid] american.
- GabrielF00 12y ago
  I currently live in Seattle and, in the past, I worked on mesh networks for another city. In that other city, the motivating factor for their public safety people was entirely ensuring connectivity for their personnel (making sure that in the event of a disaster, when cell systems might be inoperable, the first responders can still use their devices). Nobody talked about surveillance.
  - nitrogen 12y ago
    Talking about public safety is the easiest way to get something done. The other uses come later, quietly.
  - walshemj 12y ago
    you didn't have the ability to selectively shutdown the mobile network to allow only those emergency and Telco employees with with dual sim'd phones to access in an emergency?
flatline 12y ago
I'm sure that is part of what they are building it for. But given all the data from Aruba about the system's tracking capabilities, and the department's dodgy answers about its intended use, I think it would honestly be a stretch at this point to think that's all they are building it for.
- GabrielF00 12y ago
  You can probably request a copy of their grant proposal via FOIA. Having seen similar grant proposals for other cities (admittedly not in a few years) I would guess that their primary rationale is ensuring connectivity for first responders even if the cell network is down due to a disaster or some other event. I would be surprised if they considered surveillance to be a factor.
- fennecfoxen 12y ago
  I must protest. There is no way that they're building this with anything but municipal public-safety networking capabilities in mind. No off-the-shelf software from Aruba is aimed at citywide location-tracking capabilities. You could write one, or you could sort of hack away with a tool not designed for the job, but if you're really going for surveillance you'd focus on getting better tooling. So instead, they'll think of any tracking capabilities will be a handy added bonus. :) :(
squeaky-clean 12y ago
Why not both? If they just needed tracking and internet for government personnel around the city, wouldn't it be cheaper to just give them all a GPS device and a mobile hotspot? And even if the primary purpose is their own internal needs, it's entirely possible for this system to track people the way the article mentions. Even if it isn't used, it's kind of creepy that they have the capability to do that, and that we can never really know for sure that they aren't.
- GabrielF00 12y ago
  >wouldn't it be cheaper to just give them all a GPS device and a mobile hotspot? That's not really how public safety people think. How useful would a mobile hotspot be during, say, the Boston marathon bombings, when cell service was inoperable? Most likely they'll have multiple systems with different capabilities.
  - wavefunction 12y ago
    Considering the normal cell-system was shut-down by the operators due to fears about mobile-controlled IEDs (aka pressure cookers with archaic timing systems) it could be very useful, as long as the cell-system operators can discriminate on a device-level which we all know to be true at this point. And who gives fig what "public-safety" people think if it's old-fashioned? They need to step their game up and gladly join our Total Information Awareness world. I'm not paying the taxes I am for some sort of half-assed sort-of-oppressing oppression. Why did they compromise the telcos so thoroughly if not for this exact purpose? Fascismo with no joy in wielding its ultimate authoritarian stick is nothing worthwhile for these US of As. Gotta give that 110%, idolators of power and authority for their own sake...
    - GabrielF00 12y ago
      That's completely false. Cell service was inoperable due to high volumes - tens of thousands of people trying to call to check on loved ones. [http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/04/16/cellphone-networks-overwhelmed-blast-aftermath/wq7AX6AvnEemM35XTH152K/story.html http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/04/16/cellphone-net...]

cwh 12y ago

you are clearly not a [paranoid] american.

GabrielF00 12y ago
I currently live in Seattle and, in the past, I worked on mesh networks for another city. In that other city, the motivating factor for their public safety people was entirely ensuring connectivity for their personnel (making sure that in the event of a disaster, when cell systems might be inoperable, the first responders can still use their devices). Nobody talked about surveillance.
- nitrogen 12y ago
  Talking about public safety is the easiest way to get something done. The other uses come later, quietly.
- walshemj 12y ago
  you didn't have the ability to selectively shutdown the mobile network to allow only those emergency and Telco employees with with dual sim'd phones to access in an emergency?

flatline 12y ago

I'm sure that is part of what they are building it for. But given all the data from Aruba about the system's tracking capabilities, and the department's dodgy answers about its intended use, I think it would honestly be a stretch at this point to think that's all they are building it for.

GabrielF00 12y ago
You can probably request a copy of their grant proposal via FOIA. Having seen similar grant proposals for other cities (admittedly not in a few years) I would guess that their primary rationale is ensuring connectivity for first responders even if the cell network is down due to a disaster or some other event. I would be surprised if they considered surveillance to be a factor.
fennecfoxen 12y ago
I must protest. There is no way that they're building this with anything but municipal public-safety networking capabilities in mind. No off-the-shelf software from Aruba is aimed at citywide location-tracking capabilities. You could write one, or you could sort of hack away with a tool not designed for the job, but if you're really going for surveillance you'd focus on getting better tooling. So instead, they'll think of any tracking capabilities will be a handy added bonus. :) :(

squeaky-clean 12y ago

Why not both? If they just needed tracking and internet for government personnel around the city, wouldn't it be cheaper to just give them all a GPS device and a mobile hotspot? And even if the primary purpose is their own internal needs, it's entirely possible for this system to track people the way the article mentions. Even if it isn't used, it's kind of creepy that they have the capability to do that, and that we can never really know for sure that they aren't.

GabrielF00 12y ago
>wouldn't it be cheaper to just give them all a GPS device and a mobile hotspot? That's not really how public safety people think. How useful would a mobile hotspot be during, say, the Boston marathon bombings, when cell service was inoperable? Most likely they'll have multiple systems with different capabilities.
- wavefunction 12y ago
  Considering the normal cell-system was shut-down by the operators due to fears about mobile-controlled IEDs (aka pressure cookers with archaic timing systems) it could be very useful, as long as the cell-system operators can discriminate on a device-level which we all know to be true at this point. And who gives fig what "public-safety" people think if it's old-fashioned? They need to step their game up and gladly join our Total Information Awareness world. I'm not paying the taxes I am for some sort of half-assed sort-of-oppressing oppression. Why did they compromise the telcos so thoroughly if not for this exact purpose? Fascismo with no joy in wielding its ultimate authoritarian stick is nothing worthwhile for these US of As. Gotta give that 110%, idolators of power and authority for their own sake...
  - GabrielF00 12y ago
    That's completely false. Cell service was inoperable due to high volumes - tens of thousands of people trying to call to check on loved ones. [http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/04/16/cellphone-networks-overwhelmed-blast-aftermath/wq7AX6AvnEemM35XTH152K/story.html http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/04/16/cellphone-net...]