5 ms·

Grap – A Language for Typesetting Graphs

53 points by henry_flower 12y ago

greenyoda 12y ago
I remember using grap in the 1980s, when it was first released. I had no idea that people would still be interested in using it today.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
taeric 12y ago
I keep hoping someday someone will post what it is that Knuth uses for all of his charting purposes. I have yet to find one of his books where he lacks some really good visualizations in them. Heck, he even has dominoes inline in Concrete Math (well, that book does... could have been one of the other authors). His flowcharts in TAoCP are all very nicely done. Best I have found to date is graphviz.
- rsc 12y ago
  He uses MetaPost. See http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/preprints.html http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/preprints.html for examples.
  - taeric 12y ago
    Thank you! Also, wow, I don't know why I never thought to just look for some of his papers in tex form. In what I'm sure is some form of irony, I think I actually already have some. Every now and then I just try to google "what does he use" and never got a good result. There a reason other folks don't use MetaPost? He really has put it to really great use. I can't imagine quality is what keeps others from it.
    - rsc 12y ago
      I used MetaPost for a few years. It's a very quirky program and a very quirky language, like TeX itself. You can do very nice things with it but the learning curve is steep.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - taeric 12y ago
        On of my favorite pet peeves, I think you mean the learning curve is shallow? (Is there a non physical way to think of a steep curve where it isn't actually saying that you learn a lot really quickly?) (And, this is one of my favorites, as I'm convinced I have to just be wrong.) At any rate, what sort of quirks are you talking about? The examples I've seen so far don't look that bad, all told. If anything, they look quite nice, actually.
        stdbrouw 12y ago
        You're thinking it has to be time invested on the x-axis and level of expertise on the y-axis. That's certainly possible, but I think most people interpret it with level of expertise on the x-axis and (cumulative) effort invested on the y-axis. So a steep curve implies that you'd need to invest a lot of effort to become only a little bit better at something. Sort of like climbing a steep hill because there's treasure at the top of the hill, not because climbing the hill itself is something you intrinsically care about.
        taeric 12y ago
        I think it is more than just possible, that is how you typically show the chart of learning something. Time across the bottom with advancement on the side. Granted, I realize these charts aren't exactly viewed that often. The steep hill is definitely the visual people think of in this regard. I just think it is strictly due thinking of a hill, though. Not because they thought of what it would mean on a chart. :) And no, I wasn't at all confused by this. Nor was anyone else, I'm sure.
  - frik 12y ago
    MetaPost sample file: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/papers/deco.mp http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/papers/deco.mp MetaPost website: http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/hobby/MetaPost.html http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/hobby/MetaPost.html
- hebz0rl 12y ago
  You could try tikz with latex which works very well and is very slick: Example Gallery: http://www.texample.net/tikz/ http://www.texample.net/tikz/ Handbook: http://mirrors.ctan.org/graphics/pgf/base/doc/pgfmanual.pdf http://mirrors.ctan.org/graphics/pgf/base/doc/pgfmanual.pdf
  - vit_tucek 12y ago
    I've once redone a simple Metapost diagram in TikZ and was surprised how similar these languages are. At least for such a simple task that it was.
rsc 12y ago
The original is in Plan 9 and Plan 9 from User Space. http://swtch.com/usr/local/plan9/src/cmd/grap/ http://swtch.com/usr/local/plan9/src/cmd/grap/
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
michaelmior 12y ago
I've been successfully using Asymptote[1] for this purpose. I find I often have to fight a little to get things how I want, but it works quite well. The biggest benefit to me is being able to replace a dataset and have the graphs regenerate themselves. Grap seems worth exploring as an alternative though. [1] http://asymptote.sourceforge.net/ http://asymptote.sourceforge.net/

53 points by henry_flower 12y ago

I remember using grap in the 1980s, when it was first released. I had no idea that people would still be interested in using it today.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

taeric 12y ago

I keep hoping someday someone will post what it is that Knuth uses for all of his charting purposes. I have yet to find one of his books where he lacks some really good visualizations in them. Heck, he even has dominoes inline in Concrete Math (well, that book does... could have been one of the other authors). His flowcharts in TAoCP are all very nicely done. Best I have found to date is graphviz.

rsc 12y ago
He uses MetaPost. See http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/preprints.html http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/preprints.html for examples.
- taeric 12y ago
  Thank you! Also, wow, I don't know why I never thought to just look for some of his papers in tex form. In what I'm sure is some form of irony, I think I actually already have some. Every now and then I just try to google "what does he use" and never got a good result. There a reason other folks don't use MetaPost? He really has put it to really great use. I can't imagine quality is what keeps others from it.
  - rsc 12y ago
    I used MetaPost for a few years. It's a very quirky program and a very quirky language, like TeX itself. You can do very nice things with it but the learning curve is steep.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - taeric 12y ago
      On of my favorite pet peeves, I think you mean the learning curve is shallow? (Is there a non physical way to think of a steep curve where it isn't actually saying that you learn a lot really quickly?) (And, this is one of my favorites, as I'm convinced I have to just be wrong.) At any rate, what sort of quirks are you talking about? The examples I've seen so far don't look that bad, all told. If anything, they look quite nice, actually.
      - stdbrouw 12y ago
        You're thinking it has to be time invested on the x-axis and level of expertise on the y-axis. That's certainly possible, but I think most people interpret it with level of expertise on the x-axis and (cumulative) effort invested on the y-axis. So a steep curve implies that you'd need to invest a lot of effort to become only a little bit better at something. Sort of like climbing a steep hill because there's treasure at the top of the hill, not because climbing the hill itself is something you intrinsically care about.
        taeric 12y ago
        I think it is more than just possible, that is how you typically show the chart of learning something. Time across the bottom with advancement on the side. Granted, I realize these charts aren't exactly viewed that often. The steep hill is definitely the visual people think of in this regard. I just think it is strictly due thinking of a hill, though. Not because they thought of what it would mean on a chart. :) And no, I wasn't at all confused by this. Nor was anyone else, I'm sure.
- frik 12y ago
  MetaPost sample file: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/papers/deco.mp http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/papers/deco.mp MetaPost website: http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/hobby/MetaPost.html http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/hobby/MetaPost.html
hebz0rl 12y ago
You could try tikz with latex which works very well and is very slick: Example Gallery: http://www.texample.net/tikz/ http://www.texample.net/tikz/ Handbook: http://mirrors.ctan.org/graphics/pgf/base/doc/pgfmanual.pdf http://mirrors.ctan.org/graphics/pgf/base/doc/pgfmanual.pdf
- vit_tucek 12y ago
  I've once redone a simple Metapost diagram in TikZ and was surprised how similar these languages are. At least for such a simple task that it was.

rsc 12y ago

The original is in Plan 9 and Plan 9 from User Space. http://swtch.com/usr/local/plan9/src/cmd/grap/ http://swtch.com/usr/local/plan9/src/cmd/grap/

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

michaelmior 12y ago

I've been successfully using Asymptote[1] for this purpose. I find I often have to fight a little to get things how I want, but it works quite well. The biggest benefit to me is being able to replace a dataset and have the graphs regenerate themselves. Grap seems worth exploring as an alternative though. [1] http://asymptote.sourceforge.net/ http://asymptote.sourceforge.net/