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>If the goal here is to evangelize Lisp, radiating this kind of pomposity seems like a questionable move because it reflects badly on the community you are tryi

>If the goal here is to evangelize Lisp, radiating this kind of pomposity seems like a questionable move because it reflects badly on the community you are trying to win new members for. Worse, this could be interpreted as willful cluelessness in the face of the rich multi-language ecosystem potential readers are living in. How circular! A Lisper would respond that the very passage you critiqued is the appropriate response to your critique---that Lisp is coming, no matter the tone, and our complaints or praises will have no effect on the final outcome. Perhaps Lispers would do well to be less pompous, but that is for their welfare, not Lisp's.

Udo 12y ago
You could choose to understand it that way, but only if you want to kill the conversation. Which is fine, of course. Judging by the amount of controversy mirrored in the voting of my comment (I suspect moderator intervention was involved as well), a large number of HNers really do believe that all non-Lisp languages are abominations, that there is no appropriate paradigm besides Lisp's, and that Lisp already contains all the innovations and concepts that could ever be worthwhile. That's an almost cartoonishly narrow way of thinking. At best, this is a religious point of view, and at worst it's also a matter of being part of the in-group - which means this opinion is calcified because it's a critical part of these programmers' identity. I generally don't like to comment on these kinds of threads anymore than I would on political or religious ones. However, this thread is about outreach to people outside of the cult. Continually forcing the impression of being a cult might well serve to recruit more followers, but I'm wondering: does it really have to be a dogmatic movement? Isn't the larger opportunity here to try and reach another kind of person? I know there's a taboo in this community about addressing aggressiveness and arrogance, and maybe that's an excellent policy to prevent flame wars. However, I think it's a mistake to overshoot this target by accepting abrasiveness and fervor as valid replacements for reason and reflection.
- iajrz 12y ago
  Try Lisp. You'll see most modern languages -- Objective C, Ruby, Java, &c -- and not so modern languages as well, don't have much that Lisp doesn't offer. That the pomposity may not be the best way is but a matter of opinion. But features? We can sit down and count those. I encourage you to learn Lisp. It's enlightening.
  - Udo 12y ago
    What makes you think I don't know Lisp? You didn't even read my comments, did you?

Udo 12y ago

You could choose to understand it that way, but only if you want to kill the conversation. Which is fine, of course. Judging by the amount of controversy mirrored in the voting of my comment (I suspect moderator intervention was involved as well), a large number of HNers really do believe that all non-Lisp languages are abominations, that there is no appropriate paradigm besides Lisp's, and that Lisp already contains all the innovations and concepts that could ever be worthwhile. That's an almost cartoonishly narrow way of thinking. At best, this is a religious point of view, and at worst it's also a matter of being part of the in-group - which means this opinion is calcified because it's a critical part of these programmers' identity. I generally don't like to comment on these kinds of threads anymore than I would on political or religious ones. However, this thread is about outreach to people outside of the cult. Continually forcing the impression of being a cult might well serve to recruit more followers, but I'm wondering: does it really have to be a dogmatic movement? Isn't the larger opportunity here to try and reach another kind of person? I know there's a taboo in this community about addressing aggressiveness and arrogance, and maybe that's an excellent policy to prevent flame wars. However, I think it's a mistake to overshoot this target by accepting abrasiveness and fervor as valid replacements for reason and reflection.

iajrz 12y ago
Try Lisp. You'll see most modern languages -- Objective C, Ruby, Java, &c -- and not so modern languages as well, don't have much that Lisp doesn't offer. That the pomposity may not be the best way is but a matter of opinion. But features? We can sit down and count those. I encourage you to learn Lisp. It's enlightening.
- Udo 12y ago
  What makes you think I don't know Lisp? You didn't even read my comments, did you?