7 ms·

Laws in the US are far too strict. I am one of the people that are covered by this statistic, I was arrested around age 16. For curfew. Curfew, the law that s

Laws in the US are far too strict. I am one of the people that are covered by this statistic, I was arrested around age 16. For curfew. Curfew, the law that says you can't be outside after an arbitrarily dictated time. Absolutely ridiculous. For what it is worth--my record has been "expunged" and this arrest has not affected my adult life at all.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
NhanH 12y ago
I'm not sure, but does this have anything to do with being common law rather than civil law? To be more specific, it's not a matter of the law being "too strict", but rather it's too vague and have to be interpreted by a judge. So until someone actually fight a case, the interpretation could be too broad and can be used easily. In civil law, you pretty much have to iterate everything. Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about. I used to live in a country with civil law, and since moving to the US, the common law system has always fascinated me.
- AnthonyMouse 12y ago
  The vagueness of the laws are a different problem. If the laws were just vague then you could have judges interpreting them in favor of defendants as often as prosecutors. If you had to point to one thing as the cause of all this, it is likely to be the privatization of criminal justice. As soon as you have a private prison or a defense contractor selling military-grade equipment to civilian police forces, you create the incentive for those organizations to lobby for more "customers" through broader prohibitions, tougher enforcement and harsher penalties.
  - watwut 12y ago
    Only 6% of american prisons are private.
    - AnthonyMouse 12y ago
      What point are you trying to make? It's not like public prisons send lobbyists to Congress to refute arguments being made by private prison lobbyists. If 6% of your cells are cancerous you're in deep trouble.
      - nickff 12y ago
        In some states, the issue is not the private prison lobby, it is the prison guard lobby, which can be quite strong, as they may have a near monopoly on the provision of such services.[1][2] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_Officers_Association http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_O... [2] http://kalwnews.org/audio/2011/07/19/just-how-powerful-california%E2%80%99s-prison-guards-union_1098950.html http://kalwnews.org/audio/2011/07/19/just-how-powerful-calif...
    - jfoutz 12y ago
      It would be interesting to see corruption prosecution rates of judges sending people to private vs public prisons. All i can really think of are the 2 kids for cash judges, i'm sure there are plenty of unpaid corrupt judges as well.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      That's 6% too much. Letting private corporations profit from incacerated people? What's next, slavery for the blacks? Oh, wait that's been tried already...
    - rayiner 12y ago
      And most of the laws people on here don't like (I'll add cerfew for teenagers to the running list) were instituted long before we had a non-negligible amount of for-profit prisoners.
    - rayiner 12y ago
      And most of the laws people on here don't like (I'll add cerfew for teenagers to the running list) were instituted long before we had a non-negligible amount of for-profit prisoners.
  - mpyne 12y ago
    I find it fascinating how so many systemic problems in the U.S. have such simple causes and easy solutions on HN.
  - baddox 12y ago
    > The vagueness of the laws are a different problem. It's not really that separate. One way to have a very restrictive society with a high incarceration rate is to have a clear set of laws that are explicitly strict and strictly enforced. Another way is to have a set of laws so large, complex, and vague that it is literally physically impossible for anyone to know whether he or she is breaking a law by performing any given action, or laws so broad in scope that everyone is almost guaranteed to be guilty of something. While there is certainly some of both, I think the latter is a more accurate description of the United States. > As soon as you have a private prison or a defense contractor selling military-grade equipment to civilian police forces, you create the incentive for those organizations to lobby for more "customers" through broader prohibitions, tougher enforcement and harsher penalties. You don't even need "private" prisons or defense contractors in the sense you're probably thinking. Even organizations that are operated directly by government are subject to those personal incentives, because it's still individuals who rely on the government funding, both laborers for their livelihood, and higher level officers for career advancement, prestige, and power. Heck, even politicians who are elected directly often have perverse incentives, because the actions required to get reelected are potentially quite different than the actions which would accomplish the traditional goals of "good" government (like upholding law, being fair, increasing prosperity, etc.).
- GregBuchholz 12y ago
  >and have to be interpreted by a judge. ...and don't forget the important role that is supposed to be played by the jury. I always like opportunities to link to common law resources. I like: "HAYEK, THE COMMON LAW,AND FLUID DRIVE" http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/nyufinal.pdf http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/nyufinal.pdf "The Myth of the Rule of Law": http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/MythWeb.htm http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/MythWeb.htm
jedmeyers 12y ago
I unknowingly broke the curfew when I came to US the first time as an exchange student, also at age 16. As it turned out later my host parent has been waiting for me on a back parking lot while I was out on the street corner. Anyway, instead of an arrest I got a free ride home in a police car. I wonder if it has something to do with the skin color or that the area I was in is a low crime neighborhood.
Crito 12y ago
Philadelphia instituted a youth curfew because local highschool kids developed a interest in flash mobs. Not flash mobs where lots of people in a train station start dancing all of a sudden, but rather flash mobs where they all start texting all of their friends that they are going to all meet at 15th and South Street in 10 minutes to riot and loot. I'll grant that in most cases youth curfews are probably senseless, but in some cases they are used as desperate measures by cities looking to curb random organized violence committed categorically by bored teenagers on hot summer nights. http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/philadelphia-fights-violent-flash-mobs-with-curfews/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0 http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/philadelphia-fig... I was living in that city while that stuff was going full swing; it was truly insane. When you walked through areas that were frequently targeted and looked down the alleys, you would see that every single alley on the street was filled with cops, some in riot gear, and some on horseback, and paddy wagons. They would just be standing around, waiting for the call for where the flash mob would be that night.
- worklogin 12y ago
  If it were adults, would you be as casual about people being told to stay in their homes because of some troublemakers?
  - Crito 12y ago
    "Teenagers" is a pretty tight age-range and those Philadelphia riots were large enough to overwhelm the police; if that age range were expanded to 14-70 and a similar percentage of that group were rioting, then that is a massive riot. A curfew was implemented during the 1992 LA riots and enforced by the California Army National Guard. I think that is the sort of situation which you are describing, and I think that a curfew is appropriate in that sort of situation. Would I be casual about it? Casual is a weird word; nothing about that sort of situation is casual. I would support such a curfew however.
  - alexeisadeski3 12y ago
    I suppose many of them would.
barrkel 12y ago
Curfews? That sounds like something out of a police state. I did not know the US had curfew laws.
- nostrademons 12y ago
  They don't federally, but some municipalities do.
- skittles 12y ago
  The U.S. is overly protective of children and young adults. We can't drink alcohol until 21 and many cities have curfew laws for kids up to the age of 16 or so. My city has a curfew for those 16 and under. They can't be out after 11 pm during the week and after 12:30 am on weekends.
  - kazinator 12y ago
    "Teens cannot be out after 11 pm" is more about protecting the neighborhood from teens.
  - EpicEng 12y ago
    Well, I don't know; why are 15 year olds walking the streets at 1 a.m.? Something is wrong there 99.99% of the time. I don't think they should be arrested though, just returned home. I had cuffs thrown on me for curfew when I was 16 or so. No arrest, but seriously, cuffed and thrown into a pen.
    - watwut 12y ago
      This kind of thinking, right here is a problem. The "something is wrong there" assumption is wrong all too often. The assumption that the situation requires cops is wrong too - the wrong thing is most likely a parenting issue and should be dealt with by parents. Do not take me wrong, I do plan to restrict my kids movements in age appropriate ways and if they are out at 1 a.m. it better be for good reason and with my prior approval. However, even if it is without mu approval, the appropriate punishment is not cuffing nor arresting them. That kind of thing should be reserved for potential criminals that are flight risk or about to be violent. Teaching teens that arrests are normal part of life and done for normal growing up infractions teenagers occasionally commit in all parts of world is inherently wrong.
coldtea 12y ago
>Curfew, the law that says you can't be outside after an arbitrarily dictated time. We had curfew laws in my country too. Mostly during German occupation, under World War II. I'm amazed people in the "land of the free" even have such a law...
- pyre 12y ago
  Curfew laws are mostly aimed at children and don't apply to adults. Would you draw parallels between the government legislating that 'school-aged' children must go to school and the US decreeing that all Japanese people on the west coast must go to internment camps? Probably not.
  - kazinator 12y ago
    As someone who had to go to school, yes I would.
  - alexeisadeski3 12y ago
    Absolutely.
  - baddox 12y ago
    I would draw that parallel.
    - kazinator 12y ago
      And I would take all the downvotes for doing so, too, that you may be spared. :)
  - thaumasiotes 12y ago
    Yep, I'd draw the parallel too. Why do you think it's ridiculous?
  - coldtea 12y ago
    >Would you draw parallels between the government legislating that 'school-aged' children must go to school and the US decreeing that all Japanese people on the west coast must go to internment camps? Probably not. Sure, why not? It's a little worse with the Japanese people case, because of the racism involved, but on the other hand, it was an era of war between the two countries. Byt curfew for children? Even children aged 14 or 15 years old? That's no business of the law.
wutbrodo 12y ago
Would something like that be included in "arrest" statistics? My experience with running afoul of curfew was basically akin to getting a ticket (I believe it was a misdemeanor, not a ticketable offense, but I mean there was nothing resembling an arrest going on).

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

NhanH 12y ago

I'm not sure, but does this have anything to do with being common law rather than civil law? To be more specific, it's not a matter of the law being "too strict", but rather it's too vague and have to be interpreted by a judge. So until someone actually fight a case, the interpretation could be too broad and can be used easily. In civil law, you pretty much have to iterate everything. Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about. I used to live in a country with civil law, and since moving to the US, the common law system has always fascinated me.

AnthonyMouse 12y ago
The vagueness of the laws are a different problem. If the laws were just vague then you could have judges interpreting them in favor of defendants as often as prosecutors. If you had to point to one thing as the cause of all this, it is likely to be the privatization of criminal justice. As soon as you have a private prison or a defense contractor selling military-grade equipment to civilian police forces, you create the incentive for those organizations to lobby for more "customers" through broader prohibitions, tougher enforcement and harsher penalties.
- watwut 12y ago
  Only 6% of american prisons are private.
  - AnthonyMouse 12y ago
    What point are you trying to make? It's not like public prisons send lobbyists to Congress to refute arguments being made by private prison lobbyists. If 6% of your cells are cancerous you're in deep trouble.
    - nickff 12y ago
      In some states, the issue is not the private prison lobby, it is the prison guard lobby, which can be quite strong, as they may have a near monopoly on the provision of such services.[1][2] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_Officers_Association http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_O... [2] http://kalwnews.org/audio/2011/07/19/just-how-powerful-california%E2%80%99s-prison-guards-union_1098950.html http://kalwnews.org/audio/2011/07/19/just-how-powerful-calif...
  - jfoutz 12y ago
    It would be interesting to see corruption prosecution rates of judges sending people to private vs public prisons. All i can really think of are the 2 kids for cash judges, i'm sure there are plenty of unpaid corrupt judges as well.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    That's 6% too much. Letting private corporations profit from incacerated people? What's next, slavery for the blacks? Oh, wait that's been tried already...
  - rayiner 12y ago
    And most of the laws people on here don't like (I'll add cerfew for teenagers to the running list) were instituted long before we had a non-negligible amount of for-profit prisoners.
  - rayiner 12y ago
    And most of the laws people on here don't like (I'll add cerfew for teenagers to the running list) were instituted long before we had a non-negligible amount of for-profit prisoners.
- mpyne 12y ago
  I find it fascinating how so many systemic problems in the U.S. have such simple causes and easy solutions on HN.
- baddox 12y ago
  > The vagueness of the laws are a different problem. It's not really that separate. One way to have a very restrictive society with a high incarceration rate is to have a clear set of laws that are explicitly strict and strictly enforced. Another way is to have a set of laws so large, complex, and vague that it is literally physically impossible for anyone to know whether he or she is breaking a law by performing any given action, or laws so broad in scope that everyone is almost guaranteed to be guilty of something. While there is certainly some of both, I think the latter is a more accurate description of the United States. > As soon as you have a private prison or a defense contractor selling military-grade equipment to civilian police forces, you create the incentive for those organizations to lobby for more "customers" through broader prohibitions, tougher enforcement and harsher penalties. You don't even need "private" prisons or defense contractors in the sense you're probably thinking. Even organizations that are operated directly by government are subject to those personal incentives, because it's still individuals who rely on the government funding, both laborers for their livelihood, and higher level officers for career advancement, prestige, and power. Heck, even politicians who are elected directly often have perverse incentives, because the actions required to get reelected are potentially quite different than the actions which would accomplish the traditional goals of "good" government (like upholding law, being fair, increasing prosperity, etc.).
GregBuchholz 12y ago
>and have to be interpreted by a judge. ...and don't forget the important role that is supposed to be played by the jury. I always like opportunities to link to common law resources. I like: "HAYEK, THE COMMON LAW,AND FLUID DRIVE" http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/nyufinal.pdf http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/nyufinal.pdf "The Myth of the Rule of Law": http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/MythWeb.htm http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/MythWeb.htm

jedmeyers 12y ago

I unknowingly broke the curfew when I came to US the first time as an exchange student, also at age 16. As it turned out later my host parent has been waiting for me on a back parking lot while I was out on the street corner. Anyway, instead of an arrest I got a free ride home in a police car. I wonder if it has something to do with the skin color or that the area I was in is a low crime neighborhood.

Crito 12y ago

Philadelphia instituted a youth curfew because local highschool kids developed a interest in flash mobs. Not flash mobs where lots of people in a train station start dancing all of a sudden, but rather flash mobs where they all start texting all of their friends that they are going to all meet at 15th and South Street in 10 minutes to riot and loot. I'll grant that in most cases youth curfews are probably senseless, but in some cases they are used as desperate measures by cities looking to curb random organized violence committed categorically by bored teenagers on hot summer nights. http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/philadelphia-fights-violent-flash-mobs-with-curfews/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0 http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/philadelphia-fig... I was living in that city while that stuff was going full swing; it was truly insane. When you walked through areas that were frequently targeted and looked down the alleys, you would see that every single alley on the street was filled with cops, some in riot gear, and some on horseback, and paddy wagons. They would just be standing around, waiting for the call for where the flash mob would be that night.

worklogin 12y ago
If it were adults, would you be as casual about people being told to stay in their homes because of some troublemakers?
- Crito 12y ago
  "Teenagers" is a pretty tight age-range and those Philadelphia riots were large enough to overwhelm the police; if that age range were expanded to 14-70 and a similar percentage of that group were rioting, then that is a massive riot. A curfew was implemented during the 1992 LA riots and enforced by the California Army National Guard. I think that is the sort of situation which you are describing, and I think that a curfew is appropriate in that sort of situation. Would I be casual about it? Casual is a weird word; nothing about that sort of situation is casual. I would support such a curfew however.
- alexeisadeski3 12y ago
  I suppose many of them would.

barrkel 12y ago

Curfews? That sounds like something out of a police state. I did not know the US had curfew laws.

nostrademons 12y ago
They don't federally, but some municipalities do.
skittles 12y ago
The U.S. is overly protective of children and young adults. We can't drink alcohol until 21 and many cities have curfew laws for kids up to the age of 16 or so. My city has a curfew for those 16 and under. They can't be out after 11 pm during the week and after 12:30 am on weekends.
- kazinator 12y ago
  "Teens cannot be out after 11 pm" is more about protecting the neighborhood from teens.
- EpicEng 12y ago
  Well, I don't know; why are 15 year olds walking the streets at 1 a.m.? Something is wrong there 99.99% of the time. I don't think they should be arrested though, just returned home. I had cuffs thrown on me for curfew when I was 16 or so. No arrest, but seriously, cuffed and thrown into a pen.
  - watwut 12y ago
    This kind of thinking, right here is a problem. The "something is wrong there" assumption is wrong all too often. The assumption that the situation requires cops is wrong too - the wrong thing is most likely a parenting issue and should be dealt with by parents. Do not take me wrong, I do plan to restrict my kids movements in age appropriate ways and if they are out at 1 a.m. it better be for good reason and with my prior approval. However, even if it is without mu approval, the appropriate punishment is not cuffing nor arresting them. That kind of thing should be reserved for potential criminals that are flight risk or about to be violent. Teaching teens that arrests are normal part of life and done for normal growing up infractions teenagers occasionally commit in all parts of world is inherently wrong.

coldtea 12y ago

>Curfew, the law that says you can't be outside after an arbitrarily dictated time. We had curfew laws in my country too. Mostly during German occupation, under World War II. I'm amazed people in the "land of the free" even have such a law...

pyre 12y ago
Curfew laws are mostly aimed at children and don't apply to adults. Would you draw parallels between the government legislating that 'school-aged' children must go to school and the US decreeing that all Japanese people on the west coast must go to internment camps? Probably not.
- kazinator 12y ago
  As someone who had to go to school, yes I would.
- alexeisadeski3 12y ago
  Absolutely.
- baddox 12y ago
  I would draw that parallel.
  - kazinator 12y ago
    And I would take all the downvotes for doing so, too, that you may be spared. :)
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  Yep, I'd draw the parallel too. Why do you think it's ridiculous?
- coldtea 12y ago
  >Would you draw parallels between the government legislating that 'school-aged' children must go to school and the US decreeing that all Japanese people on the west coast must go to internment camps? Probably not. Sure, why not? It's a little worse with the Japanese people case, because of the racism involved, but on the other hand, it was an era of war between the two countries. Byt curfew for children? Even children aged 14 or 15 years old? That's no business of the law.

wutbrodo 12y ago

Would something like that be included in "arrest" statistics? My experience with running afoul of curfew was basically akin to getting a ticket (I believe it was a misdemeanor, not a ticketable offense, but I mean there was nothing resembling an arrest going on).