6 ms·

I think that this trend, at least in part, has been influenced by a change in the way that we treat adolescent crime. For example, even when I was a kid (early

by EpicEng 12y ago

I think that this trend, at least in part, has been influenced by a change in the way that we treat adolescent crime. For example, even when I was a kid (early 90's) you would not get arrested for getting into a fist fight at school. Nowadays, bam; call the cops. Get caught with some pot? Arrested. Get caught performing some petty vandalization? Arrested. Get caught at a party drinking as a minor? Arrested. We arrest kids for things that they used to just get a slap on the wrist/call to mom & dad for. Now they get a court date. We throw the cuffs on kids much more readily than we used to 20, 30, 40+ years ago.

morgante 12y ago
> I think that this trend, at least in part, has been influenced by a change in the way that we treat adolescent crime. For example, even when I was a kid (early 90's) you would not get arrested for getting into a fist fight at school. Nowadays, bam; call the cops. Well, the people in this study were born in the early 80s. So I'm not sure any modern shifts that you point to are the distinctive factor.
- nmrm 12y ago
  I think they were born in the 80's. Which means they were kids in the 90's and early 2000's, at the very peak of the US prison population boom. I could be wrong.
- EpicEng 12y ago
  No, they were 18 between 1997 and 2008, so they were *born in the between 1979 and 1990, i.e., they were teenagers in the 90's or early 00's, same age as me (DOB 1983). "The study is an analysis of national survey data from 1997 to 2008 of teenagers and young adults, ages 18"
  - morgante 12y ago
    I guess we had different ideas of kids. This data is based on NLSY97, meaning the subjects were born between 1981 and 1985. [1] Still, doesn't that contradict your point about these results being based on a substantial difference from when you were a kid? As you point out, this study is based on exactly your cohort. Thus it's not a matter of policies nowadays leading to 40% arrest rates. That figure is based directly on the policies of the 90s. [1] http://www.bls.gov/nls/nlsy97.htm http://www.bls.gov/nls/nlsy97.htm
    - EpicEng 12y ago
      90's and 00's, yes, but it's become even more extreme. I was arrested a couple of times as a teenager, but if I had done half the things as a teen now that I did back then I would probably have spent my formative years in juvie. I'm just saying, the trend is there. More and more kids get arrested for what I would argue is petty stuff that most kids do.
      - morgante 12y ago
        > I'm just saying, the trend is there. More and more kids get arrested for what I would argue is petty stuff that most kids do. I don't disagree. I wholeheartedly abhor the criminalization of the current educational discipline regime. My only point is that unfortuntely this study is not itself sufficient to comment on that ridiculous escalation, given its use of decades-old data.
agwa 12y ago
This has been dubbed the "school-to-prison pipeline." It's exacerbated by the fact that many schools now have police officers permanently stationed at the school, which leads to a "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. It also contributes to the racial disparity because predominantly black schools are more likely to have a police officer than predominantly white schools.
- cyorir 12y ago
  This was a sensitive topic while I was in high school in Colorado. I don't think the school had a majority, but the largest groups were white and hispanic groups. We always had at least 1 permanent police officer heading a group of a couple of people who could be either police or security. Nominally this was a response to incidents throughout the rest of the state such as Columbine, but in reality the purpose was to try to combat youth gangs. In this respect I think it partially worked for the circumstances. However, this was also used to target usage of marijuana and cigarettes by students. I'm not sure how effective this was, because data about that was not commonly released by the school. Needless to say, a lot of students didn't like this, but opinion of the student body was very divided. It would be interesting to see how things have changed in Colorado high schools since marijuana was legalized; I'll have to look into that, but in most schools marijuana is still banned (like tobacco products) so things could only get worse if school policy is unchanged.
  - josho 12y ago
    As an outsider that seems incredibly wrong. The answer to youth gangs is not more security. Perform a root cause analysis and go back to the fact that kids often fall into gangs because parents are not around (working double jobs), they are stuck in poverty with an easy out (crime). It saddens me to read about solving youth problems by attacking the symptoms rather than the cause. Though I understand why, fixing the cause takes time, is unpopular to those on the political right, while fixing the symptom seems can achieve immediate results (though not long term).
    - cyorir 12y ago
ufmace 12y ago
I understand that this is also partly due to legal liability issues. Nowadays, due to civil suits, schools often have little effective way to discipline the uncooperative students besides calling the police. When any potential physical contact can result in an expensive lawsuit, or maybe even sexual harassment/molestation accusations, they tend to play it safe and dial 911.
watwut 12y ago
They can really arrested you for drinking as a minor? In here a bar can get into trouble if they sell you a drink, but your only trouble are parents if they ever find out. And I remember that 18-19 years old Americans I knew indeed used to drink (and get wasted too).
- mpyne 12y ago
  As always in the U.S., it depends on the state and city where you live. But I'm pretty positive there are cities where it's actually illegal for a person to be drinking underage. Knowing some of our cities, mere possession of an open container by itself might be enough. However as you note, that hasn't really stopped teenage drinking...
  - analog31 12y ago
    When I was in college, some dorm buddies of mine got caught drinking on a public beach at night, were arrested, and charged with "minor in possession." I'm pretty sure this was a state law, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't widespread.
  - nanidin 12y ago
    It's worse than that - entire states have adopted the concept of a minor in possession by consumption - if a minor is behaving in a way that leads police to believe they are intoxicated, that is enough to charge them with being in possession of alcohol.
Pxtl 12y ago
Honestly, I'm not sure that police involvement for this stuff is a bad thing. Schools are no longer equipped to handle violence between students, and it's questionable whether they ever were. They've lost many disciplinary tools they could use to deal with violent students, and even then it's hard to say that schools properly handled bullying or other student-on-student violence issues back in the "good old days". Bringing in the police to handle those kinds of issues might actually be the appropriate response. Pulling out an arrest for it though seems excessive.
- coldtea 12y ago
  >Honestly, I'm not sure that police involvement for this stuff is a bad thing. Schools are no longer equipped to handle violence between students, and it's questionable whether they ever were. I don't know, they are perfecty fine to "handle violence between students" in Western Europe, and without metal detectors and police on site. Perhaps it's time for the society to recheck it's course, instead of throwing jail time at the problem?
  - Kiro 12y ago
    I don't agree. School in Western Europe can be a horrifying experience where the only solution is that the person being beaten up transfers to another school. Nothing is done about the people beating.
    - Sprint 12y ago
      Emphasis on can. Of course it can, there is always outliers and there is nothing that can be done about that. However I would guess that in the majority of cases people beating do get handled. I am just guessing. Are you just guessing too or do you have some hard evidence or statistics to back your claim?
      - lmm 12y ago
        My personal experience and that of other members of my family is in line with Kiro's claim. Not very strong evidence, but it's what I've got.
rmc 12y ago
That's what "Zero Tolerance" means. It means the powers that be have no leeway, and no tolerance to any thing, and must call the cops.

by EpicEng 12y ago

morgante 12y ago

> I think that this trend, at least in part, has been influenced by a change in the way that we treat adolescent crime. For example, even when I was a kid (early 90's) you would not get arrested for getting into a fist fight at school. Nowadays, bam; call the cops. Well, the people in this study were born in the early 80s. So I'm not sure any modern shifts that you point to are the distinctive factor.

nmrm 12y ago
I think they were born in the 80's. Which means they were kids in the 90's and early 2000's, at the very peak of the US prison population boom. I could be wrong.
EpicEng 12y ago
No, they were 18 between 1997 and 2008, so they were *born in the between 1979 and 1990, i.e., they were teenagers in the 90's or early 00's, same age as me (DOB 1983). "The study is an analysis of national survey data from 1997 to 2008 of teenagers and young adults, ages 18"
- morgante 12y ago
  I guess we had different ideas of kids. This data is based on NLSY97, meaning the subjects were born between 1981 and 1985. [1] Still, doesn't that contradict your point about these results being based on a substantial difference from when you were a kid? As you point out, this study is based on exactly your cohort. Thus it's not a matter of policies nowadays leading to 40% arrest rates. That figure is based directly on the policies of the 90s. [1] http://www.bls.gov/nls/nlsy97.htm http://www.bls.gov/nls/nlsy97.htm
  - EpicEng 12y ago
    90's and 00's, yes, but it's become even more extreme. I was arrested a couple of times as a teenager, but if I had done half the things as a teen now that I did back then I would probably have spent my formative years in juvie. I'm just saying, the trend is there. More and more kids get arrested for what I would argue is petty stuff that most kids do.
    - morgante 12y ago
      > I'm just saying, the trend is there. More and more kids get arrested for what I would argue is petty stuff that most kids do. I don't disagree. I wholeheartedly abhor the criminalization of the current educational discipline regime. My only point is that unfortuntely this study is not itself sufficient to comment on that ridiculous escalation, given its use of decades-old data.

agwa 12y ago

This has been dubbed the "school-to-prison pipeline." It's exacerbated by the fact that many schools now have police officers permanently stationed at the school, which leads to a "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. It also contributes to the racial disparity because predominantly black schools are more likely to have a police officer than predominantly white schools.

cyorir 12y ago
This was a sensitive topic while I was in high school in Colorado. I don't think the school had a majority, but the largest groups were white and hispanic groups. We always had at least 1 permanent police officer heading a group of a couple of people who could be either police or security. Nominally this was a response to incidents throughout the rest of the state such as Columbine, but in reality the purpose was to try to combat youth gangs. In this respect I think it partially worked for the circumstances. However, this was also used to target usage of marijuana and cigarettes by students. I'm not sure how effective this was, because data about that was not commonly released by the school. Needless to say, a lot of students didn't like this, but opinion of the student body was very divided. It would be interesting to see how things have changed in Colorado high schools since marijuana was legalized; I'll have to look into that, but in most schools marijuana is still banned (like tobacco products) so things could only get worse if school policy is unchanged.
- josho 12y ago
  As an outsider that seems incredibly wrong. The answer to youth gangs is not more security. Perform a root cause analysis and go back to the fact that kids often fall into gangs because parents are not around (working double jobs), they are stuck in poverty with an easy out (crime). It saddens me to read about solving youth problems by attacking the symptoms rather than the cause. Though I understand why, fixing the cause takes time, is unpopular to those on the political right, while fixing the symptom seems can achieve immediate results (though not long term).
  - cyorir 12y ago

ufmace 12y ago

I understand that this is also partly due to legal liability issues. Nowadays, due to civil suits, schools often have little effective way to discipline the uncooperative students besides calling the police. When any potential physical contact can result in an expensive lawsuit, or maybe even sexual harassment/molestation accusations, they tend to play it safe and dial 911.

watwut 12y ago

They can really arrested you for drinking as a minor? In here a bar can get into trouble if they sell you a drink, but your only trouble are parents if they ever find out. And I remember that 18-19 years old Americans I knew indeed used to drink (and get wasted too).

mpyne 12y ago
As always in the U.S., it depends on the state and city where you live. But I'm pretty positive there are cities where it's actually illegal for a person to be drinking underage. Knowing some of our cities, mere possession of an open container by itself might be enough. However as you note, that hasn't really stopped teenage drinking...
- analog31 12y ago
  When I was in college, some dorm buddies of mine got caught drinking on a public beach at night, were arrested, and charged with "minor in possession." I'm pretty sure this was a state law, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't widespread.
- nanidin 12y ago
  It's worse than that - entire states have adopted the concept of a minor in possession by consumption - if a minor is behaving in a way that leads police to believe they are intoxicated, that is enough to charge them with being in possession of alcohol.

Pxtl 12y ago

Honestly, I'm not sure that police involvement for this stuff is a bad thing. Schools are no longer equipped to handle violence between students, and it's questionable whether they ever were. They've lost many disciplinary tools they could use to deal with violent students, and even then it's hard to say that schools properly handled bullying or other student-on-student violence issues back in the "good old days". Bringing in the police to handle those kinds of issues might actually be the appropriate response. Pulling out an arrest for it though seems excessive.

coldtea 12y ago
>Honestly, I'm not sure that police involvement for this stuff is a bad thing. Schools are no longer equipped to handle violence between students, and it's questionable whether they ever were. I don't know, they are perfecty fine to "handle violence between students" in Western Europe, and without metal detectors and police on site. Perhaps it's time for the society to recheck it's course, instead of throwing jail time at the problem?
- Kiro 12y ago
  I don't agree. School in Western Europe can be a horrifying experience where the only solution is that the person being beaten up transfers to another school. Nothing is done about the people beating.
  - Sprint 12y ago
    Emphasis on can. Of course it can, there is always outliers and there is nothing that can be done about that. However I would guess that in the majority of cases people beating do get handled. I am just guessing. Are you just guessing too or do you have some hard evidence or statistics to back your claim?
    - lmm 12y ago
      My personal experience and that of other members of my family is in line with Kiro's claim. Not very strong evidence, but it's what I've got.

rmc 12y ago

That's what "Zero Tolerance" means. It means the powers that be have no leeway, and no tolerance to any thing, and must call the cops.