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That's because your VPN providers are no doubt using a different transit provider than Netflix (Level 3) so your traffic is bypassing the congested peering poin

by agwa 12y ago

That's because your VPN providers are no doubt using a different transit provider than Netflix (Level 3) so your traffic is bypassing the congested peering points. The peering disputes are affecting not just Netflix traffic, but traffic between Verizon and any site using Level 3 for transit. (Not to take the blame away from Verizon. I'd love to see them try to use their logic to explain why other, non-Netflix services work like crap from Verizion.)

joeframbach 12y ago
Isn't the Netflix-to-Verizon transit something that we already pay Verizon to maintain?
- maxsilver 12y ago
  Yes, but Verizon also wants Netflix to pay them for that same transit. That's what the whole blog article is about. Verizon trying to invent valid reasons for why they want Netflix to pay them.
  - jpgvm 12y ago
    They are not inventing reasons. Netflix is serving the content, Netflix pays for it to move. Simple as that. The issue is Layer 3 is not buying enough transit from Verizon to match the disparity in the traffic it wants to send beyond what is covered by settlement free peering. If you look at the diagram on the Verizon post you can see the link is saturated in one direction and only at 30% utilization in the other direction. This is the DEFINITION of transit. The fact Netflix is even blaming Verizon for this is ridiculous.
    - Terretta 12y ago
      > If you look at the diagram on the Verizon post The diagram is wrong. The thing they colored red is not red. The wire is fine. The box inside Verizon's network has a network card in it that's oversubscribed. A slice of their box should be red. Btw, the definition I'm familiar with for "transit" is crossing a network backbone, it's neither serving, nor consuming. The traffic "transits" your network, on its way from somewhere to somewhere.
    - bobcostas55 12y ago
      L3 should not have to buy anything from Verizon. The only reason they're paying them at all is that the blackmail worked in the past. That is not how peering agreements work.
      - jpgvm 12y ago
        No, it is how peering agreements work. None of you have ever negotiated a peering agreement which is exactly why you don't understand that Verizon is in the right here, L3 is just providing cheap (and inferior) transit and Netflix is just bitching because it bought a Ford and expects a Ferrari.
    - dllthomas 12y ago
      Netflix could address the balance by streaming back video of people watching their movies. Would that mean Netflix should pay less? Balance of traffic is just a completely crazy metric.
    - deeviant 12y ago
      That's funny, I thought verizon's customers paid verizon nontrivial sums of money which happen to be many times of what netflix charges on a monthy basis to connect them to the internet, silly me.
    - Ma8ee 12y ago
      I have already paid Verizon to deliver the content. That Netflix doesn't request huge amounts of data from me is beside the point.
    - sandstrom 12y ago
      This article is readable and explains the basics of 'transit' (I think peering is the correct term in this case). http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/observations-internet-middleman/ http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/observations-inte...
SilasX 12y ago
So ... if movak could costlessly move the traffic to a better route, why isn't that the normal way it's working now? Why can't Netflix just use that route?
- agwa 12y ago
  It wasn't costless. The VPN providers paid for the bandwidth rnovak consumed.
  - SilasX 12y ago
    But don't people get the same results from free ones? And even if rnovak [1] was paying for it, that's still pretty cheap for the traffic to be shifted like that, with Netflix being aware of the costs, so it's still (AFAICT) hard to reconcile with the claim that Verizon isn't deliberately discriminating against Netflix. [1] sorry, rn -> blurred into m
    - agwa 12y ago
      Free VPN providers are almost definitely absorbing the cost as part of a freemium pricing model, and cheap VPN providers are probably overselling their bandwidth under the assumption that most of their customers won't use much. The reason why routing Netflix via VPNs currently works so well is because not many people are doing it. If more people did, then 1.) VPN providers would start to charge more, and 2.) the peering points between Verizon and the VPN services' transit providers would become more congested. rnovak's "proof" of deliberate discrimination against Netflix was that encrypting Netflix traffic caused Netflix to perform better. That's simply not the reason - the reason is that the VPN traffic avoids the congested Level 3/Verizion peering points. Netflix traffic is not the only traffic that's suffering - any traffic coming from Level 3 is. (In fact, this issue has affected me, even though I'm not a Netflix customer, because I regularly access servers which get their transit from Level 3.) It might be that Verizon is playing extra-hard ball in the negotiations because Netflix traffic is involved, but any discrimination is not exclusively against Netflix and it's not because of deliberate packet inspection. Not even Netflix claims it is.

by agwa 12y ago

joeframbach 12y ago

Isn't the Netflix-to-Verizon transit something that we already pay Verizon to maintain?

maxsilver 12y ago
Yes, but Verizon also wants Netflix to pay them for that same transit. That's what the whole blog article is about. Verizon trying to invent valid reasons for why they want Netflix to pay them.
- jpgvm 12y ago
  They are not inventing reasons. Netflix is serving the content, Netflix pays for it to move. Simple as that. The issue is Layer 3 is not buying enough transit from Verizon to match the disparity in the traffic it wants to send beyond what is covered by settlement free peering. If you look at the diagram on the Verizon post you can see the link is saturated in one direction and only at 30% utilization in the other direction. This is the DEFINITION of transit. The fact Netflix is even blaming Verizon for this is ridiculous.
  - Terretta 12y ago
    > If you look at the diagram on the Verizon post The diagram is wrong. The thing they colored red is not red. The wire is fine. The box inside Verizon's network has a network card in it that's oversubscribed. A slice of their box should be red. Btw, the definition I'm familiar with for "transit" is crossing a network backbone, it's neither serving, nor consuming. The traffic "transits" your network, on its way from somewhere to somewhere.
  - bobcostas55 12y ago
    L3 should not have to buy anything from Verizon. The only reason they're paying them at all is that the blackmail worked in the past. That is not how peering agreements work.
    - jpgvm 12y ago
      No, it is how peering agreements work. None of you have ever negotiated a peering agreement which is exactly why you don't understand that Verizon is in the right here, L3 is just providing cheap (and inferior) transit and Netflix is just bitching because it bought a Ford and expects a Ferrari.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    Netflix could address the balance by streaming back video of people watching their movies. Would that mean Netflix should pay less? Balance of traffic is just a completely crazy metric.
  - deeviant 12y ago
    That's funny, I thought verizon's customers paid verizon nontrivial sums of money which happen to be many times of what netflix charges on a monthy basis to connect them to the internet, silly me.
  - Ma8ee 12y ago
    I have already paid Verizon to deliver the content. That Netflix doesn't request huge amounts of data from me is beside the point.
  - sandstrom 12y ago
    This article is readable and explains the basics of 'transit' (I think peering is the correct term in this case). http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/observations-internet-middleman/ http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/observations-inte...

SilasX 12y ago

So ... if movak could costlessly move the traffic to a better route, why isn't that the normal way it's working now? Why can't Netflix just use that route?

agwa 12y ago
It wasn't costless. The VPN providers paid for the bandwidth rnovak consumed.
- SilasX 12y ago
  But don't people get the same results from free ones? And even if rnovak [1] was paying for it, that's still pretty cheap for the traffic to be shifted like that, with Netflix being aware of the costs, so it's still (AFAICT) hard to reconcile with the claim that Verizon isn't deliberately discriminating against Netflix. [1] sorry, rn -> blurred into m
  - agwa 12y ago
    Free VPN providers are almost definitely absorbing the cost as part of a freemium pricing model, and cheap VPN providers are probably overselling their bandwidth under the assumption that most of their customers won't use much. The reason why routing Netflix via VPNs currently works so well is because not many people are doing it. If more people did, then 1.) VPN providers would start to charge more, and 2.) the peering points between Verizon and the VPN services' transit providers would become more congested. rnovak's "proof" of deliberate discrimination against Netflix was that encrypting Netflix traffic caused Netflix to perform better. That's simply not the reason - the reason is that the VPN traffic avoids the congested Level 3/Verizion peering points. Netflix traffic is not the only traffic that's suffering - any traffic coming from Level 3 is. (In fact, this issue has affected me, even though I'm not a Netflix customer, because I regularly access servers which get their transit from Level 3.) It might be that Verizon is playing extra-hard ball in the negotiations because Netflix traffic is involved, but any discrimination is not exclusively against Netflix and it's not because of deliberate packet inspection. Not even Netflix claims it is.