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There's a running joke in a student organization I'm involved in, whether a situation is absurd or completely ordinary, someone might ask: "Is it sexist?" Occa

There's a running joke in a student organization I'm involved in, whether a situation is absurd or completely ordinary, someone might ask: "Is it sexist?" Occasionally it leads to interesting, and difficult discussion that waxes philosophical. So, her self-declared official title is "Security Princess". Is it sexist? Edit: I encourage readers to read my reply to jamesaguilar, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8013723 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8013723, to elucidate why we still ask the question, "Is it sexist?", and not just to be funny.

AaronFriel 12y ago
I'm replying to myself to keep the above short and sweet. I'm inclined to think it is. I'm worried that someone could see that title, not understand her position or its importance, and disregard her. Or assume Google has disregarded her. Or assume that you have to have adhere to "Princess-like" gender norms. All of which bother me. If I didn't read the article, I might think: * Google doesn't take security seriously. (A topic for another topic, but I digress.) * Google doesn't take women in senior positions seriously. * If I'm a woman, I can expect to have a title like that at Google. Etc. Is it sexist? Knowing more facts makes it less-so, but can we rely on the general public knowing all the facts? Edit: I encourage readers to read my reply to jamesaguilar, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8013723 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8013723, to elucidate why we still ask the question, "Is it sexist?", and not just to be funny.
- saraid216 12y ago
  You're confusing sexist interpretation with sexist action. If Person A chooses to wear a pink t-shirt, this is not sexist. If Person B chooses to interpret such a t-shirt as feminine, that is sexist. I'm deliberately avoiding giving Person A a gender, you'll notice.
  - AaronFriel 12y ago
    I think you're confusing your interpratation of the question "Is it sexist?" with its actual effect :) Google, and even the employee herself, are sending signals, just like startups send signals to investors and people signal their gender with what they wear. Is it sexist to interpret pink t-shirts as feminine? (I think that's more a question of gender construction, but I digress again.) I think there's a big problem with the way that tech giants send signals towards women who want to approach technology. Having a senior-level highly technical role in your company with the title "Security Princess" sends a lot of signals, and I don't think most of them are good for fighting sexism. Does that make sense?
- shmerl 12y ago
  > I'm worried that someone could see that title, not understand her position or its importance, and disregard her. How does it make the title sexist? It makes it confusing or non descriptive if you like. And what if the title was "security prince"? Would it make any difference regarding the above? I don't think so. It would be as much confusing as a "security princess". So it's not sexist really.
saraid216 12y ago
Nope. Self-declared largely makes it okay. If you looked down the job listings and one was, "Security Princess", that would be sexist. Neither does the title carry enough baggage to make it demeaning. This is generally where self-declared things get into trouble, but "Security Princess" is, I think, novel enough to avoid this.
- AaronFriel 12y ago
  Sure, but what about the people who aren't aware that it's self-declared? I would hate to have some pop culture drivel pick up this story and talk about Google's "Security Princess", wouldn't you?
  - vacri 12y ago
    People who can't figure out that a clearly jocular title like 'security princess' at a large, highly-visible corporation must be self-assigned... these are the kind of people that utterly sap the joy out of life and generally aren't worth talking to in the first place. Yes, people who have English as a second language might not pick up on the joke as fast, but they're also unlikely to be writing pop culture drivel articles if they aren't that familiar with the language.
    - shmerl 12y ago
      I'm not sure if "lizard wrangler" for example is a self assigned title :)
      - vacri 12y ago
        My favourite movie credit was for a "butterfly wrangler". I had an image of someone in chaps and a cowboy hat, holding a really tiny whip...
    - SnacksOnAPlane 12y ago
      I went on a long rant at my last company about how pretentious it is for anyone to call themselves a "thought leader". Guess what my next nametag had as my position...
jamesaguilar 12y ago
My flavor of feminism holds that you do not judge a woman's choices about her own priorities, dress, sexuality, the terms she uses to describe herself, etc. Others might feel differently though. Your concern is admirable. If men paid as much attention to their own speech as you are to this woman's, we might not even have to have this discussion. I do consider it ironic though considering you and your friends liked to trivialize the question "is it sexist" in random situations, apparently, reading between the lines, because you found it funny.
- AaronFriel 12y ago
  Sure, the question is sometimes trivial. But it's also a question that keeps us on our toes. I run a secular student organization - atheist, agnostic, secular humanist, pro-free speech, establishment clause, all that and so on. Our group is largely feminist, but for years suffered a severely lopsided gender disparity. We ask ourselves "is it sexist?" because sometimes things that seem so obviously, ordinarily not-sexist, like a self-ascribed title, can result in a sexist impact. Some atheist student organizations I've met across the country allow personalized titles. I've met people who described their position in the organization as "Batman", or "God". These titles send signals that the group isn't serious. Completely innocuous, non-sexist things can send entirely sexist signals. The types of events a student organization advertises: board games versus video games, can result in huge gender disparities. Catering to one because your current members prefer it is not sexist. Catering to one and ignoring the impact it has, is. I think to be a proactive feminist, you have to examine the total impact of your actions, not just what individuals intended to happen. You have to examine not just why a decision was made, but what factors weren't considered in making it. Is Parisa Tabriz sexist? No, I don't think so. Is she a bad feminist? I couldn't even begin to answer that question, I don't know her. But is her title sexist? I have to think of my student organization and the signals we send. If my Director of Membership asked to change her title to "Membership Princess", I would say no. That sends the wrong signal to potential members.
  - jamesaguilar 12y ago
    > I think that to be a proactive Feminist, you have to examine the total impact of your actions . . . Then I beg you to consider the impact of this sort of cross examination, which men seem to engage in as a knee jerk reaction whenever they encounter a woman who don't fit the desired flavor. It is part of the problem; it is not part of the solution.
vacri 12y ago
Not really, given that it's a self-assigned title with no pressure from the organisation to make it that way. For myself, I got tired of title inflation at my work and changed my position title on my emails from 'sysadmin' to 'grand duke of information systems infrastructure'. The front-end people liked it enough that they changed it on the 'about us' page as well. I got bored of the joke after a few months and reverted it, but though it was never official, I was never asked to 'correct' the title. A self-set self-aggrandising title like this might be conceited, but it's not sexist. The way people treat you for it might be, though.
trhway 12y ago
lets try - Bob says to John "ask for our Security Princess". ok. Being from another department, John later asks for "Security Queen"... Princess ok? Queen - not? At least it wasn't ok back then in the Github sexual harassment story : https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160/photo/1 https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160/phot...

AaronFriel 12y ago

I'm replying to myself to keep the above short and sweet. I'm inclined to think it is. I'm worried that someone could see that title, not understand her position or its importance, and disregard her. Or assume Google has disregarded her. Or assume that you have to have adhere to "Princess-like" gender norms. All of which bother me. If I didn't read the article, I might think: * Google doesn't take security seriously. (A topic for another topic, but I digress.) * Google doesn't take women in senior positions seriously. * If I'm a woman, I can expect to have a title like that at Google. Etc. Is it sexist? Knowing more facts makes it less-so, but can we rely on the general public knowing all the facts? Edit: I encourage readers to read my reply to jamesaguilar, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8013723 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8013723, to elucidate why we still ask the question, "Is it sexist?", and not just to be funny.

saraid216 12y ago
You're confusing sexist interpretation with sexist action. If Person A chooses to wear a pink t-shirt, this is not sexist. If Person B chooses to interpret such a t-shirt as feminine, that is sexist. I'm deliberately avoiding giving Person A a gender, you'll notice.
- AaronFriel 12y ago
  I think you're confusing your interpratation of the question "Is it sexist?" with its actual effect :) Google, and even the employee herself, are sending signals, just like startups send signals to investors and people signal their gender with what they wear. Is it sexist to interpret pink t-shirts as feminine? (I think that's more a question of gender construction, but I digress again.) I think there's a big problem with the way that tech giants send signals towards women who want to approach technology. Having a senior-level highly technical role in your company with the title "Security Princess" sends a lot of signals, and I don't think most of them are good for fighting sexism. Does that make sense?
shmerl 12y ago
> I'm worried that someone could see that title, not understand her position or its importance, and disregard her. How does it make the title sexist? It makes it confusing or non descriptive if you like. And what if the title was "security prince"? Would it make any difference regarding the above? I don't think so. It would be as much confusing as a "security princess". So it's not sexist really.

saraid216 12y ago

Nope. Self-declared largely makes it okay. If you looked down the job listings and one was, "Security Princess", that would be sexist. Neither does the title carry enough baggage to make it demeaning. This is generally where self-declared things get into trouble, but "Security Princess" is, I think, novel enough to avoid this.

AaronFriel 12y ago
Sure, but what about the people who aren't aware that it's self-declared? I would hate to have some pop culture drivel pick up this story and talk about Google's "Security Princess", wouldn't you?
- vacri 12y ago
  People who can't figure out that a clearly jocular title like 'security princess' at a large, highly-visible corporation must be self-assigned... these are the kind of people that utterly sap the joy out of life and generally aren't worth talking to in the first place. Yes, people who have English as a second language might not pick up on the joke as fast, but they're also unlikely to be writing pop culture drivel articles if they aren't that familiar with the language.
  - shmerl 12y ago
    I'm not sure if "lizard wrangler" for example is a self assigned title :)
    - vacri 12y ago
      My favourite movie credit was for a "butterfly wrangler". I had an image of someone in chaps and a cowboy hat, holding a really tiny whip...
  - SnacksOnAPlane 12y ago
    I went on a long rant at my last company about how pretentious it is for anyone to call themselves a "thought leader". Guess what my next nametag had as my position...

jamesaguilar 12y ago

My flavor of feminism holds that you do not judge a woman's choices about her own priorities, dress, sexuality, the terms she uses to describe herself, etc. Others might feel differently though. Your concern is admirable. If men paid as much attention to their own speech as you are to this woman's, we might not even have to have this discussion. I do consider it ironic though considering you and your friends liked to trivialize the question "is it sexist" in random situations, apparently, reading between the lines, because you found it funny.

AaronFriel 12y ago
Sure, the question is sometimes trivial. But it's also a question that keeps us on our toes. I run a secular student organization - atheist, agnostic, secular humanist, pro-free speech, establishment clause, all that and so on. Our group is largely feminist, but for years suffered a severely lopsided gender disparity. We ask ourselves "is it sexist?" because sometimes things that seem so obviously, ordinarily not-sexist, like a self-ascribed title, can result in a sexist impact. Some atheist student organizations I've met across the country allow personalized titles. I've met people who described their position in the organization as "Batman", or "God". These titles send signals that the group isn't serious. Completely innocuous, non-sexist things can send entirely sexist signals. The types of events a student organization advertises: board games versus video games, can result in huge gender disparities. Catering to one because your current members prefer it is not sexist. Catering to one and ignoring the impact it has, is. I think to be a proactive feminist, you have to examine the total impact of your actions, not just what individuals intended to happen. You have to examine not just why a decision was made, but what factors weren't considered in making it. Is Parisa Tabriz sexist? No, I don't think so. Is she a bad feminist? I couldn't even begin to answer that question, I don't know her. But is her title sexist? I have to think of my student organization and the signals we send. If my Director of Membership asked to change her title to "Membership Princess", I would say no. That sends the wrong signal to potential members.
- jamesaguilar 12y ago
  > I think that to be a proactive Feminist, you have to examine the total impact of your actions . . . Then I beg you to consider the impact of this sort of cross examination, which men seem to engage in as a knee jerk reaction whenever they encounter a woman who don't fit the desired flavor. It is part of the problem; it is not part of the solution.

vacri 12y ago

Not really, given that it's a self-assigned title with no pressure from the organisation to make it that way. For myself, I got tired of title inflation at my work and changed my position title on my emails from 'sysadmin' to 'grand duke of information systems infrastructure'. The front-end people liked it enough that they changed it on the 'about us' page as well. I got bored of the joke after a few months and reverted it, but though it was never official, I was never asked to 'correct' the title. A self-set self-aggrandising title like this might be conceited, but it's not sexist. The way people treat you for it might be, though.

trhway 12y ago

lets try - Bob says to John "ask for our Security Princess". ok. Being from another department, John later asks for "Security Queen"... Princess ok? Queen - not? At least it wasn't ok back then in the Github sexual harassment story : https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160/photo/1 https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160/phot...