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My theory on confusion over the Beats purchase is that Apple fanboys have a reluctance to admit that Apple is significantly a fashion company. Not the beacon of

My theory on confusion over the Beats purchase is that Apple fanboys have a reluctance to admit that Apple is significantly a fashion company. Not the beacon of technical excellence(asterisk) they set it up to be in their mind. The reality is that Beats is also primarily a fashion company. Also with a strong brand. Also with a product line that sells at a high markup. They go together like pancakes and maple syrup. If Apple puts Beats headphones in their stores they will sell just as much as they do now. Why wouldn't Apple want a slice of that profit? And if they make a next generation Beats headphone that can only be used with Apple products? Well, that's even more money. Edit: asterisk: which is not to say that Apple lacks technical excellence, but the reason why they are so successful is not their engineering credentials, it's because they are able to marry aesthetics and engineering.

tptacek 12y ago
To the extent that you can say the exact same thing about Porsche, I agree; just bear in mind that it takes more than a sense of style to execute on "Porsche". But also look how Apple integrates downmarket. To a first approximation nobody's first car is a Porsche, but the less expensive iPhones are viable first smartphones. There's something powerful about being able, at least in theory, to address the whole market that way. Porsche probably can't change the way everyone engages with cars, but Apple can do that with mobile.
- jarek 12y ago
  I would suggest that it's more that an upmarket of mobile phones doesn't really exist right now. Pretty much everyone has the same thing. Who's the Porsche or the Rolls of mobile? To a first approximation, much of the first world can afford a 5S if they really want one. Vertu? Heh.
  - pas 12y ago
    Yeah, but a Vertu is excessive, just as a Porsche. Normcore is the word. You have to look just better than your peers, not everyone at once. So, even though a lot of people couldn't affort a pricier phone than the 5S, even those who can afford a Vertu stay on the 5S and spend on other accessories.
- InclinedPlane 12y ago
  Sure, sure. But that's true of nearly all "fashion" brands, even Beats (though less so compared to Porsche or Armani or omega watches). There's nothing wrong with iPhones or apple products in general, they make some very good products. Pretending that fashion isn't a big reason behind the popularity of Apple products in general is silly.
jrlocke 12y ago
Apple's original success does not stem from fashion, but rather from their OS being the most accessible alternative to Windows for non-technical users--driving huge profits selling hardware.
- Crito 12y ago
  Early iPods did not have a significant leg up over other MP3 players in terms of usability, other MP3 players at the time hearkened back to the Walkman, which nearly all non-technical consumers were perfectly comfortable with and capable of using. The big gain there was that the iPod had a modern design, not a design dating back to the 80s. Edit: The clickwheel was an improvement, but it wasn't like consumers were confused or apprehensive about using the alternatives at the time. We were not like the proverbial grandmothers struggling to check their email in Windows XP; they understood the other products just fine.
  - sosborn 12y ago
    >Early iPods did not have a significant leg up over other MP3 players in terms of usability This is subjective, but I disagree. The click wheel was unmatched IMHO.
    - Crito 12y ago
      The click wheel was good, but it wasn't like consumers were confused by the alternatives. With PCs you could make the case that most consumers struggled to use windows at the time, but hand-held media players haven't had that problem since the 80s.
      - etchalon 12y ago
        The problem with the alternatives wasn't that they were "confusing". They were just bad. I remember trying to find a song on my Rio. It took forever. It was pointless. I came to the conclusion my best bet was to build Playlists, on my computer, and use those. The iPod's interface made finding songs, artists, albums, etc effortless. Just because an interface isn't confusing doesn't mean it's any good.
jaegerpicker 12y ago
"have a reluctance to admit that Apple is significantly a fashion company. Not the beacon of technical excellence they set it up to be in their mind." This is a false dichotomy, the idea that Apple is either a fashion company or a Tech leader. Why can't they be both? Yes they make products that are fashionably designed but, IMO, they are clearly also a leader if not the leader in consumer technical excellence.
- InclinedPlane 12y ago
  I think you're misreading what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Apple is just a fashion company. I'm saying that a lot of folks, especially the silicon valley alpha geek types, who are die hard Apple fans try to rationalize their preferences in a way that excludes the fashion aspect out of a sense of embarrassment or what-have-you.
  - threeseed 12y ago
    A lot of people, including myself, like Apple products less so for the design and more for the actual technical qualities. They make the best laptops by far. The operating system marries UNIX with ease of use like nothing before. There is genuine attention to detail in their software that Microsoft or Ubuntu simply doesn't have. I am sick to death of idiots like you who dismiss my choice as being "fashionable".
    - tptacek 12y ago
      All you had to do was stop before writing that last sentence, and your comment could have been taken seriously. There's still time to edit it (if you do, my comment won't make any sense anymore, and I'll kill it).
      - threeseed 12y ago
        No I won't edit it. Painting someone's decision as "fashionable" is a form of condescension. It's hilarious that HN doesn't see this kind of behaviour as a personal attack and downvote accordingly.
sscalia 12y ago
You're a smug asshole, aren't you. The reason they are so successful is the technology falls by the wayside; that's how advanced they are. Just because you get off rooting your phone doesn't mean they're not the leaders in technical excellence.
- wglb 12y ago
  Personal attacks are not welcome on HN.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    It's funny how close that came to being a decent comment; the first sentence is like an own-goal.
    - sahaj 12y ago
      I sense a financial stake in the companies is what's at play here.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
threeseed 12y ago
>Apple is significantly a fashion company Which fashion companies design their own programming language, design their own CPUs, lead the industry in hardware manufacturing, produce innovative security features like TouchID etc. None. They are a product and services company who care about design. It really isn't hard to see that they contribute just as much to the IT industry as Microsoft or Google.
axman6 12y ago
I think the term you might be looking for is product excellence. Apple rarely do technology for the sake of technology, they do it for the improvement of their product from the customer's point of view. They do appredciate good design, but that doesn't make them a fashion company, it makes them a company who scrutinises every aspect of the product, not just the spec sheet and I personally really appreciate that.

tptacek 12y ago

To the extent that you can say the exact same thing about Porsche, I agree; just bear in mind that it takes more than a sense of style to execute on "Porsche". But also look how Apple integrates downmarket. To a first approximation nobody's first car is a Porsche, but the less expensive iPhones are viable first smartphones. There's something powerful about being able, at least in theory, to address the whole market that way. Porsche probably can't change the way everyone engages with cars, but Apple can do that with mobile.

jarek 12y ago
I would suggest that it's more that an upmarket of mobile phones doesn't really exist right now. Pretty much everyone has the same thing. Who's the Porsche or the Rolls of mobile? To a first approximation, much of the first world can afford a 5S if they really want one. Vertu? Heh.
- pas 12y ago
  Yeah, but a Vertu is excessive, just as a Porsche. Normcore is the word. You have to look just better than your peers, not everyone at once. So, even though a lot of people couldn't affort a pricier phone than the 5S, even those who can afford a Vertu stay on the 5S and spend on other accessories.
InclinedPlane 12y ago
Sure, sure. But that's true of nearly all "fashion" brands, even Beats (though less so compared to Porsche or Armani or omega watches). There's nothing wrong with iPhones or apple products in general, they make some very good products. Pretending that fashion isn't a big reason behind the popularity of Apple products in general is silly.

jrlocke 12y ago

Apple's original success does not stem from fashion, but rather from their OS being the most accessible alternative to Windows for non-technical users--driving huge profits selling hardware.

Crito 12y ago
Early iPods did not have a significant leg up over other MP3 players in terms of usability, other MP3 players at the time hearkened back to the Walkman, which nearly all non-technical consumers were perfectly comfortable with and capable of using. The big gain there was that the iPod had a modern design, not a design dating back to the 80s. Edit: The clickwheel was an improvement, but it wasn't like consumers were confused or apprehensive about using the alternatives at the time. We were not like the proverbial grandmothers struggling to check their email in Windows XP; they understood the other products just fine.
- sosborn 12y ago
  >Early iPods did not have a significant leg up over other MP3 players in terms of usability This is subjective, but I disagree. The click wheel was unmatched IMHO.
  - Crito 12y ago
    The click wheel was good, but it wasn't like consumers were confused by the alternatives. With PCs you could make the case that most consumers struggled to use windows at the time, but hand-held media players haven't had that problem since the 80s.
    - etchalon 12y ago
      The problem with the alternatives wasn't that they were "confusing". They were just bad. I remember trying to find a song on my Rio. It took forever. It was pointless. I came to the conclusion my best bet was to build Playlists, on my computer, and use those. The iPod's interface made finding songs, artists, albums, etc effortless. Just because an interface isn't confusing doesn't mean it's any good.

jaegerpicker 12y ago

"have a reluctance to admit that Apple is significantly a fashion company. Not the beacon of technical excellence they set it up to be in their mind." This is a false dichotomy, the idea that Apple is either a fashion company or a Tech leader. Why can't they be both? Yes they make products that are fashionably designed but, IMO, they are clearly also a leader if not the leader in consumer technical excellence.

InclinedPlane 12y ago
I think you're misreading what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Apple is just a fashion company. I'm saying that a lot of folks, especially the silicon valley alpha geek types, who are die hard Apple fans try to rationalize their preferences in a way that excludes the fashion aspect out of a sense of embarrassment or what-have-you.
- threeseed 12y ago
  A lot of people, including myself, like Apple products less so for the design and more for the actual technical qualities. They make the best laptops by far. The operating system marries UNIX with ease of use like nothing before. There is genuine attention to detail in their software that Microsoft or Ubuntu simply doesn't have. I am sick to death of idiots like you who dismiss my choice as being "fashionable".
  - tptacek 12y ago
    All you had to do was stop before writing that last sentence, and your comment could have been taken seriously. There's still time to edit it (if you do, my comment won't make any sense anymore, and I'll kill it).
    - threeseed 12y ago
      No I won't edit it. Painting someone's decision as "fashionable" is a form of condescension. It's hilarious that HN doesn't see this kind of behaviour as a personal attack and downvote accordingly.

sscalia 12y ago

You're a smug asshole, aren't you. The reason they are so successful is the technology falls by the wayside; that's how advanced they are. Just because you get off rooting your phone doesn't mean they're not the leaders in technical excellence.

wglb 12y ago
Personal attacks are not welcome on HN.
- tptacek 12y ago
  It's funny how close that came to being a decent comment; the first sentence is like an own-goal.
  - sahaj 12y ago
    I sense a financial stake in the companies is what's at play here.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

threeseed 12y ago

>Apple is significantly a fashion company Which fashion companies design their own programming language, design their own CPUs, lead the industry in hardware manufacturing, produce innovative security features like TouchID etc. None. They are a product and services company who care about design. It really isn't hard to see that they contribute just as much to the IT industry as Microsoft or Google.

axman6 12y ago

I think the term you might be looking for is product excellence. Apple rarely do technology for the sake of technology, they do it for the improvement of their product from the customer's point of view. They do appredciate good design, but that doesn't make them a fashion company, it makes them a company who scrutinises every aspect of the product, not just the spec sheet and I personally really appreciate that.