Most immutable objects don't have methods that would mutate the value, but fail because the object is immutable... I guess the clarification to what I was sayi

Most immutable objects don't have methods that would mutate the value, but fail because the object is immutable... I guess the clarification to what I was saying is that, in the simple case (integers, strings, None) the objects are immutable. It's only getting into cases where the value of the object itself is mutable, that you run into issues. If all objects (or all objects 'allowed' as default values) were immutable, then this behavior would not trigger. So saying that mutability has nothing to do with it isn't entirely true. It's the immutability of the types of values used in most simple cases that hides this issue from developers until they run into a more complex case.