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I wonder what the thought process is like for someone who decides to be a professional fraudster. "I'm going to spend my life pretending to be a scientist." I

I wonder what the thought process is like for someone who decides to be a professional fraudster. "I'm going to spend my life pretending to be a scientist." Is it because they feel there's nothing else they could transition into, so they're forced to decide between cheating or failing? Or is it a conscious decision to cheat out of greed? What's interesting is that the sheer amount of fraud suggests that this thought process is considered at least somewhat normal by an entire society. Which societal factors could've led to this situation?

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Many frauds are fooling themselves? They believe their shoddy process is 'just as good' as real science.
WalterSear 12y ago
In cultures based on conformity and ignorance, status is more important than actual achievement. That said, it's probably an more inculturated process of what the fraud being discussed in the article.
- coldtea 12y ago
  >In cultures based on conformity and ignorance, status is more important than actual achievement. In the way that Dr. Dre is in higher regard by the majority compared to Miles Davis and Miley Cyrus compared to Grace Hopper?
  - WalterSear 12y ago
    No. In the way that villagers aspire to be people who wear fancy suits and order people about for a living.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      Villagers? You mean like people from Iowa or Idaho, wanting to make it big in the big city?
  - lmm 12y ago
    If bringing happiness to millions through entertainment doesn't count as actual achievement, sure.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      Well, you can give happiness to millions by selling shitty over-advertised stuff, that's shodily made, and bad for them. If "hapiness" was a criterium, drug dealers and pimps would be up their in the "achievement" scale.
    - WalterSear 12y ago
      It's a non sequitar, in any case. Someone is butthurt because there are actual differences between east and west that aren't pretty. I'm not saying the west doesn't have it's share, just that: A) they are different shames and B) there's no magical rule which makes all cultures equally util. Some places/people are inevitably worse than others.
laurent123456 12y ago
I think it's a culture thing. In China, it doesn't matter who you are, who you seem to be is everything. I remember someone lying about pretty much everything he bought, sometime making it nearly 10 times more expensive than it is (I've checked afterwards), probably to make himself seem wealthy. Same in the office, it doesn't matter if you sit there all day doing nothing productive. As long as you leave late, it will make people think that you're working hard, and that's all that matters.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  Is this the case for most of China? It's just so hard to believe that most of a society's culture could actually be like that. But maybe that's just inexperience talking.
  - cyorir 12y ago
    No. Remember that China is a large place. It is not as homogenous as is sometimes portrayed. Cultural differences in China occur by region, by class, by ethnic minority, by age, and by other factors. So blanket statements about China tend to be rough generalization. Bragging about spending 1000 yuan on something that actually costs 100 yuan might work in some parts of China, but spend time with a different type of people in a different part of China and you risk sounding like a pompous jerk. Which is also true of a lot of western societies, come to think of it.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    No, it's mostly the westerner's who hasn't set foot in China view (or the one who only set foot with the mentality of an a ex-colonialist).
    - laurent123456 12y ago
      No, it's also the view of many Chinese people, many of them are well aware of the issues of their own country.
Balgair 12y ago
Delusion is an ugly ugly thing. The thoughts are not: 'Im going to be a fraudster', it's more like 'If I don't do this, I'll never be a tenured professor.' Also, from what little I know, China has a huge sense of 'saving face.' These services allow one to save face, if only in the short term. Also, if everyone looses face, it is an easier blow to take, as you are absolved from fault due to social pressure. If you call the emperor out on having no clothes, you make a fool of everyone, not just the leaders. That is very dangerous in a society that high prizes honor and face, as you are calling everyone out on it. It's not likely to make friends.
coldtea 12y ago
You'd be surprised how common it is in the West too.
simonh 12y ago
Bear in mind that the entire machinery of government, law enforcement and defence is a political monopoly with only the veneer of a pretense to rule in the interests of the people. Cynical manipulation of the system for personal gain is completely normalised. I speak from extensive personal experience. That's not to say that everyone in China is practicing the worst excesses, but even the most conciencious and moral people in China are put in a position where they have to manipulate the system just to get anywhere or pretty much do anything, even for basic licenses and permits. Everybody is on the same slippery slope whether they like it or not. It's just a question of how far you're willing to slide.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago

Many frauds are fooling themselves? They believe their shoddy process is 'just as good' as real science.

WalterSear 12y ago

In cultures based on conformity and ignorance, status is more important than actual achievement. That said, it's probably an more inculturated process of what the fraud being discussed in the article.

coldtea 12y ago
>In cultures based on conformity and ignorance, status is more important than actual achievement. In the way that Dr. Dre is in higher regard by the majority compared to Miles Davis and Miley Cyrus compared to Grace Hopper?
- WalterSear 12y ago
  No. In the way that villagers aspire to be people who wear fancy suits and order people about for a living.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Villagers? You mean like people from Iowa or Idaho, wanting to make it big in the big city?
- lmm 12y ago
  If bringing happiness to millions through entertainment doesn't count as actual achievement, sure.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Well, you can give happiness to millions by selling shitty over-advertised stuff, that's shodily made, and bad for them. If "hapiness" was a criterium, drug dealers and pimps would be up their in the "achievement" scale.
  - WalterSear 12y ago
    It's a non sequitar, in any case. Someone is butthurt because there are actual differences between east and west that aren't pretty. I'm not saying the west doesn't have it's share, just that: A) they are different shames and B) there's no magical rule which makes all cultures equally util. Some places/people are inevitably worse than others.

laurent123456 12y ago

I think it's a culture thing. In China, it doesn't matter who you are, who you seem to be is everything. I remember someone lying about pretty much everything he bought, sometime making it nearly 10 times more expensive than it is (I've checked afterwards), probably to make himself seem wealthy. Same in the office, it doesn't matter if you sit there all day doing nothing productive. As long as you leave late, it will make people think that you're working hard, and that's all that matters.

sillysaurus3 12y ago
Is this the case for most of China? It's just so hard to believe that most of a society's culture could actually be like that. But maybe that's just inexperience talking.
- cyorir 12y ago
  No. Remember that China is a large place. It is not as homogenous as is sometimes portrayed. Cultural differences in China occur by region, by class, by ethnic minority, by age, and by other factors. So blanket statements about China tend to be rough generalization. Bragging about spending 1000 yuan on something that actually costs 100 yuan might work in some parts of China, but spend time with a different type of people in a different part of China and you risk sounding like a pompous jerk. Which is also true of a lot of western societies, come to think of it.
- coldtea 12y ago
  No, it's mostly the westerner's who hasn't set foot in China view (or the one who only set foot with the mentality of an a ex-colonialist).
  - laurent123456 12y ago
    No, it's also the view of many Chinese people, many of them are well aware of the issues of their own country.

Balgair 12y ago

Delusion is an ugly ugly thing. The thoughts are not: 'Im going to be a fraudster', it's more like 'If I don't do this, I'll never be a tenured professor.' Also, from what little I know, China has a huge sense of 'saving face.' These services allow one to save face, if only in the short term. Also, if everyone looses face, it is an easier blow to take, as you are absolved from fault due to social pressure. If you call the emperor out on having no clothes, you make a fool of everyone, not just the leaders. That is very dangerous in a society that high prizes honor and face, as you are calling everyone out on it. It's not likely to make friends.

coldtea 12y ago

You'd be surprised how common it is in the West too.

simonh 12y ago

Bear in mind that the entire machinery of government, law enforcement and defence is a political monopoly with only the veneer of a pretense to rule in the interests of the people. Cynical manipulation of the system for personal gain is completely normalised. I speak from extensive personal experience. That's not to say that everyone in China is practicing the worst excesses, but even the most conciencious and moral people in China are put in a position where they have to manipulate the system just to get anywhere or pretty much do anything, even for basic licenses and permits. Everybody is on the same slippery slope whether they like it or not. It's just a question of how far you're willing to slide.