16 ms·

Tor Project Sued

290 points by mike-cardwell 12y ago

mike-cardwell 12y ago
Relevant thread on the tor-talk mailing list: https://www.mail-archive.com/tor-talk@lists.torproject.org/msg14085.html https://www.mail-archive.com/tor-talk@lists.torproject.org/m...
- jrockway 12y ago
  Love the lawyer's Twitter page: "Owner of The Van Dyke Law Firm P.L.L.C. and quite possibly the meanest and most right-wing lawyer in Texas." I feel like there's another -est he's forgetting about.
linuxhansl 12y ago
Instead of letting it rest, Shelby (the plaintiff) will now be known to a far wider audience. Should have read up about the Streisand effect. The petition seems to be slightly clueless. Tor and Pinkmeth "conspired"? And then a list of anonymous comments from Pinkmeth... They clearly do not speak for Pinkmeth (or Tor). And who is this "Tor" anyway? Everybody who runs a relay or exit node? The software engineers? Yes, Tor can be used to transfer information. You also need a computer for that. Did that computer's manufacturer also conspire? What about about the routers that transmit the information?
- synctext 12y ago
  Clueless is the issue at play here it seems. This case has years of history. With some light digging you can find out that she also sued Verisign: http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/12/06/52881.htm http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/12/06/52881.htm Same thing happened there, lot of smoke, no substance.
  - blossoms 12y ago
    Anybody have a link to the document? It's behind a paywall?
    - mpnordland 12y ago
      I seem to be able to access it, and I've never paid Scribd anything.
      - jasonlotito 12y ago
        They're referring to the document in the article. Not the article or scribd.
- deciplex 12y ago
  It's possible she's not too concerned that people see the pictures as such, but rather with the violation Pink Meth has committed here. That is, maybe she would be fine with every last human being viewing nude pictures of her, if it meant putting Pink Meth out of commission and punishing the people who run it.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
victoriabrinsly 12y ago
Appsted – Renowned Android Application Development http://www.appsted.com/services/android-development http://www.appsted.com/services/android-development
serf 12y ago
"However, unscrupulous Internet service companies such as TOR offer "private" or "anonymous" domain name hosting services that allow criminals such as Pinkmeth and its users to escape accountability for their actions. TOR even advertises that with their service "nobody would be able to determine who was offering the site, and nobody who offered the site would know who was posting to it." Wow. Weird to think of a non-profit software group which makes software that aims to decentralize/anonymize parts of the web through mostly the bandwidth of the users of their product as an "Internet service company", but I suppose it is. Kinda.
- malka 12y ago
  The TOR project NEVER provided a service, if I am not mistaken. They provide the software, and that's it.
  - icebraining 12y ago
    Actually, they do: the Directory Servers, which the clients use for knowing about other nodes. For example: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/time-directory-authority-outside-useu https://blog.torproject.org/blog/time-directory-authority-ou...
    - belorn 12y ago
      A Directory Server is akin to ARIN, in that it's a directory of all the nodes and their location in the network. Suing ARIN (and services like it) because there is a website somewhere which is connected to the INTERNET is a new form of silliness not seen before. Sure, technically, ARIN do "perform a service" which "enables" a revenge site to operate, but it is so indirect, so remote from the offending party, that it is just silly.
      - forgottenpass 12y ago
        A Directory Server is also akin to a torrent tracker or website hosting links to tv shows on another video service's website. No not exactly, but unless you have the legal arguments so that it will not be treated as such by the courts, I'm just putting it out there.
RobAley 12y ago
I've never read one of these in full before, and I'm somewhat bemused by section 9.1., which is a prayer. Is that a normal, usual or required part of such a complaint? Seems quite out of place to me.
- jonnybgood 12y ago
  It's what the plaintiff wants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_relief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_relief
- spacemanmatt 12y ago
  Not all prayer is directed toward a supernatural entity.
  - RobAley 12y ago
    Indeed, but it sounds out of place regardless of the target. Now I understand what it is, "request" or similar seems a more appropriate word. "Prayer" evokes some kind super-legal meaning or precedence onto the request that is out of place in a matter-of-fact setting.
- teachingaway 12y ago
  Really sounds out of place. I always cringe when I write it. Sometimes I'll change it to "Request for Relief", and I've never had a judge comment on the change.
onion2k 12y ago
This is a good thing, because unless provision of anonymity is tested in court and shown to be legal and useful there's always the possibility that it's not protected by law and people will be in danger of getting sued or imprisoned if they make anonymising services. Far better to test it in court with a stupid revenge porn website than testing it with a case of, for example, a whistleblower where authorities feels they need to win. With some previous precedents set it'll make it far harder to argue that providers of anonymity are responsible or culpable when it actually matters.
- tragic 12y ago
  > Far better to test it in court with a stupid revenge porn website than testing it with a case of, for example, a whistleblower where authorities feels they need to win. Disclaimer: I'm one of the less privacy-obsessed posters on here. Even so: really? Hypothetically speaking, if the US state apparatus wants to clamp down on Tor and anonymising services, then you don't want your test case to be a whistleblower for whom there may turn out to be wider public sympathy. You want it to be some obvious, incontrovertible scumbag. Plays much, much nicer in the public gallery. That's just how it's done. Cf. how a more punitive defamation regime in the UK was won on the back not of politicians trying to protect their expenses or some such, but the hacking of a dead teenager's voicemail and various other dirty tricks of the gutter press. This is just the way you do things.
  - xophe 12y ago
    Yes, exactly this. If they lose, then there's going to be precedent for when the stakes are high. And I can't see how they can totally escape culpability, since they can't even turn over the source if they wanted to. The anonymity Tor provides is fundamental from an Internet activist perspective but in the eyes of the law (and the world outside our tech bubble) it's aiding and abetting. There's a reason why we're not allowed to have encrypted landlines. I don't feel good about this at all.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      > There's a reason why we're not allowed to have encrypted landlines. Wait, what? Is that true? It isn't true, as far as I know, in the UK.
Fuxy 12y ago
Of course it's Texas I men where else would it be... I never considered Tor an ISP since their using their users connections to the internet which they have already payed for and are sharing for free but ok. I would call it more of a social network where everybody is helping everybody else stay anonymous. Tor project offer private and anonymous domain name hosting? Well technically maybe but not really... it's not like you can access .onion domains without installing Tor and if you do install Tor you're opting to be anonymous. How does this work if a program is offering anything close to the domain to IP resolution used on the internet while preserving your anonymity within their ecosystem they are breaking the law? It's a piece of software designed to preserve you privacy and anonymity of course everything in its ecosystem is going to do that and their going to advertize that.
artpar 12y ago
So whats next, sue "The Internet" for there are websites like the pirate bay ? Did I get the anology right ?
dctoedt 12y ago
The defendants, which apparently are not residents of Texas, will probably exercise their statutory right to "remove" [1] this lawsuit, so that instead of the case being heard in the Texas state court in Denton, it'll be in the federal court in Dallas [2]. We can expect the defendants to move to dismiss the case on the merits, on grounds that their conduct is protected by Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act [3]. Whether they'll succeed is another question, especially as to Pinkmeth, and Tor might have an uphill battle as well. We can also expect the defendants to move to dismiss on procedural grounds -- they will claim that they don't have enough contact with Texas to be properly subject to suit there (here) [4]. That too will probably be the subject of "satellite" litigation in pre-trial motion practice. This won't be an inexpensive exercise for the defendants, just in terms of legal fees. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_jurisdiction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_jurisdiction [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_Northern_District_of_Texas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_fo... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communicatio... [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_jurisdiction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_jurisdiction
- 300bps 12y ago
  More likely the Defendants have expected this type of thing to happen and are completely judgment proof. Anyone in a profession likely to be sued is smart to put asset protection at the forefront of their financial life and these guys would have to be insane not to have done that.
  - AlyssaRowan 12y ago
    When you say "these guys", do you mean the Tor project? If so, they are at much higher risk than mere lawsuits, and they are quite well aware of that. The Electronic Frontier Foundation previously hosted the Tor project on tor.eff.org until it moved to torproject.org - I would expect a very forceful response and representation from EFF, probably already being drafted. (If you meant the 'revenge porn website' in question, I've no idea, but that's not the interesting part here.)
- 12y ago
pron 12y ago
This is the most important bit, IMO: CAUSES OF ACTION AGAINST TOR 6.1 A civil conspiracy consists of a combination of two or more persons to accomplish an unlawful purpose or a lawful purpose by unlawful means. 6.2 Pinkmeth and TOR conspired to and had a meeting of the minds regarding the commission certain torts against Plaintiff more adequately described in paragraphs 5.1 - 5.15 above, as well as certain felony offense described in paragraph 4.8 and 4.9 above. The specific object to be accomplished by the conspiracy was the publication pornographic images of Plaintiff (and other women) on the Pinkmeth website in such a manner so as to prevent its operators and users from being held civilly and criminally accountable for this unlawful behavior.
lucaspiller 12y ago
The interesting part to me is that the court claims it has jurisdiction because it is accessible in Texas and to Texas residents: > This Court has jurisdiction over the website and all of its administrators under the Texas Long Arm Statute because they (a) operate illegal"involuntary pornography" or "revenge pornography" websites on the World Wide Web that are accessible to and targets residents of the State of Texas > This Court has jurisdiction over TOR because it (a) advertises and offers the services referenced above in Texas and to Texas residents
- blossoms 12y ago
  Any internet website can be attacked this same way.
- SynchrotronZ 12y ago
  It's not much different from from Apple having to abide by EU laws if it wants to sell its product in Europe. Or to invoke 'think of the children'[1], the prosecution of Child Pornography websites hosted/owned by foreign nationals. [1] There really should be some form of Goodwin's Law for this by now.
  - monochr 12y ago
    If Europe overreached as much as this judge every single Apple device would be 220v 60Hz with a two round pin adapter. The reason why this isn't is that Apple needs to comply with European laws and standards in Europe. Not in the US or whichever other hellhole uses 110V 50Hz mains.
    - blossoms 12y ago
      Afaik Apple's switching power supplies support the specifications you described (for example, see Mac Mini's tech specs https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/specs.html https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/specs.html -- 50-60Hz 100-240v AC). Not to mention Apple sells region-specialized units just like every other major computer retailer.
    - deleted 12y ago
mariuolo 12y ago
I wonder if they could be compelled to sabotage the security of TOR à la lavabit or allegedly Truecrypt.
- AlyssaRowan 12y ago
  We'd know; and, no.
- danielweber 12y ago
  "Allegedly" can hide a lot of accusations.
throwaway283719 12y ago
The tl;dr seems to be that "pinkmeth.com" is a revenge porn site (who are also being sued) and that the Tor Project is being sued because they "knowingly assist sites such as pinkmeth.com".
xophe 12y ago
>> Suing a revenge porn site. Fair, next. Oh wait there's more. From https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq-abuse.html.en https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq-abuse.html.en >> Tor aims to provide protection for ordinary people who want to follow the law. Only criminals have privacy right now, and we need to fix that. True, but distribution has always been the hard part in any kind of scalable criminal activity, and Tor is unwittingly facilitating this. There's definitely a case here against PinkMeth.com. Revenge porn sites don't really receive protection under fair use. So here's the sticky part. Here's Tor's hidden services overview: https://www.torproject.org/docs/hidden-services.html.en https://www.torproject.org/docs/hidden-services.html.en Since the hidden services are themselves run over Tor, it looks to me like the only thing Tor can do is refuse to serve PinkMeth.com without identifying the agents. Which might be good for privacy precedent on the one hand, but bad if Tor as a result receives all the flack for all criminal activity run over Tor -- that means Tor relays (who are identifiable) are next. Ideas to save Tor?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- wcummings 12y ago
  "Blocking" sites, were this feisible, would be the death of Tor, not its savior.
cones688 12y ago
There's something quite ironic about this statement if you swap out Pinkmeth and nude photographs and replace with US government: "Pinkmeth has intentionally intruded on Plaintiffs solitude, seclusion or private affairs. Specifically, Pinkmeth gained unauthorized access to nude photographs constituting the property of Plaintiff"
enneff 12y ago
I'm sitting here wondering what possible motivation someone might have for running a site like Pinkmeth. It's one thing to share the amateur porn, but why share the names and locations?
- pjc50 12y ago
  Misogyny?
  - walshemj 12y ago
    or blackmail pay us x or ....
    - danielweber 12y ago
      Yes, blackmail. "Pay us to take it down."
- 67726e 12y ago
  Clearly it is a public service. Doesn't everyone cross-reference their dates with these kinds of sites? I obviously wouldn't want to wind up with someone stupid enough to get their nude pics AND contact information on the internet. Either that or someone is just attempting to facilitate trolling/being a dick.
  - criswell 12y ago
    I don't think it's a matter of stupidity. Nude pics can get online through a stolen phone, lost phone or a breached account of some sort. Once you have a picture of someones face it's pretty easy to get a name through the right channels.
    - 67726e 12y ago
      Having nude photos of oneself on a device that is easily stolen in an easily accessible, unprotected manner sounds pretty stupid to me.
voltagex_ 12y ago
Could this be a case of advertising for the lawyer involved? The Twitter feed is... interesting. https://twitter.com/MeanTXLawyer https://twitter.com/MeanTXLawyer
- ninjin 12y ago
  This guy, he previously threatened @pinkmeth over on Twitter to "make an exception to not beating women" if it turned out that @pinkmeth was a woman, there was also a tweet about his backyard, a gun and a shovel. Being the class act that he is, he now appears to have removed them, is it even legal to make those kinds of threats in the first place?
  - Filligree 12y ago
    IANAL, but no, I don't believe death threats are legal.
    - spacemanmatt 12y ago
      Preemptory death threats are part of the path to disbarment. I hope defendants can nail those tweets to him in court.
  - jebus989 12y ago
    Still present: https://twitter.com/MeanTXLawyer/status/483692810684493825 https://twitter.com/MeanTXLawyer/status/483692810684493825 Not sure the account is legit however.
- 67726e 12y ago
  Possibly, though there is an alleged victim, Shelby Conklin, of the pinkmeth site involved in the case. It isn't clear if she found the lawyer or if the lawyer found her though.
Kyris 12y ago
This is like suing the women's clothes shop that sold the tights to a person who then used the tights to conceal their identity whilst robbing a bank. Ban Tights! We must stop people wearing tights. The world will not be free whilst people can buy tights.
AlyssaRowan 12y ago
Not a lawyer, let alone a Texas lawyer. But two pages in and plaintiff has already seemingly misrepresented to the court: where does Tor's website show that they are aware of either this particular hidden service, or this site? There most certainly cannot be any "conspiracy" with someone they don't know about, or any "meeting of the minds" without evidence they've even spoken! That's just plain clear old-fashioned bullshit. I've never heard of it before and there are no indications that they found the "pinkmeth.com" site hard to serve at all: it's a .com. Tor should be discharged as a party: they are completely irrelevant to this case.
- spacemanmatt 12y ago
  pro se litigants rock my news ticker.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    This is not pro se. She has a real lawyer representing her.
    - AlyssaRowan 12y ago
      Indeed, which I find remarkable.
    - teachingaway 12y ago
      "Real Lawyer"... technically true... But the lawyer doesn't appear to know much about the relevant law or technology. He does have a pic of himself photoshopped into a courthouse. Weirdly floating at the bottom of this page: http://vandykelawfirm.com/index-2.html http://vandykelawfirm.com/index-2.html
- madaxe_again 12y ago
  Yeah, but the suit has been raised in Texas, and plain clear old-fashioned bullshit seems to fly just fine there, going by patent/IP cases and the like. I think this is going to be interesting - as I think the plaintiff will win in Texas against both parties, and this could end up being a significant tort case, if it ends up in higher courts.
neurobro 12y ago
I feel bad for the plaintiff. First her pictures were posted to that site, which apparently caused enough distress to seek counsel. And now, despite virtually no chance of redress for her, the whole thing will be far more publicized so this lawyer can throw a hail mary and try to make a name for himself.
- keithpeter 12y ago
  And the wide publicity resulting from the political fallout of a legal case touching TOR, one hopes the 'torch and pitchfork' elements will back off a bit.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
crackling 12y ago
Clue stick for "the thickest and most misogynistic lawyer in Texas": claiming that Tor "provides a service" is no different from claiming that gun manufacturers "provide murders committed with firearms".
jheriko 12y ago
As much as I don't like the litigation culture or 'the man' stepping on 'the little guy' as a result - but if the little guy is being a dick and acting in violation of the spirit of the law then let him stomp away in defence of other little people... the world will be better for it. If you provide the means to do something wrong - no matter what your intent - you are still responsible because without your actions the wrong would not have come to pass.
- cruise02 12y ago
  Bullshit. If I make steak knives for a living, am I responsible when someone gets stabbed?
  - menubar 12y ago
    But what if your steak knife product was called "Fatal Revenge Stabber for Ex-Girlfriends and Steak"?
    - cruise02 12y ago
      That's a valid point. I'd probably take some heat for that.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - jheriko 12y ago
    a little bit yes. if you didn't make that knife they may have found another one... but that doesn't stop that they took your work and used it for harm. i'm sorry that reality is harsh.
    - nknighthb 12y ago
      What a bizarre worldview. Is a pipe manufacturer is responsible when someone drowns in a bathtub?
xeroxmalf 12y ago
Are they suing tor2web[0] as well, seeing as the "AKA" listed includes the tor2web address, *.onion.lt, or just another example of this lawyers lack of research? [0] https://tor2web.org https://tor2web.org
mpnordland 12y ago
I'm sorry, but the plaintiff in this case nor her lawyer cannot possibly be technically capable of understanding what happens with Tor. Section 4.4 reveals this by saying: " The World Wide Web operates using web "browsers" ... to read a web-based programming language commonly known as HTML." Will people never learn the difference between markup and programming?
- mortov 12y ago
  You would have thought they would have learned that since they apparently first sued in 2012 - 2 years is surely long enough to learn about the internet ? http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/12/06/52881.htm http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/12/06/52881.htm
ahunt09 12y ago
Petty, I know, but "The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICAAN)" (?)
SquareWheel 12y ago
Is there a non-scribd link?
- yebyen 12y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=954967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=954967 "Scribd was seed funded by Y Combinator."
  - yebyen 12y ago
    This was in the top google results looking for a connection, I knew it was a fact but I don't know why people hate on Scribd or why it would be considered ethically or morally wrong... I think it's relevant that Scribd is supported by Y-Combinator. Is there a reason why you don't want to click through to Scribd and press download?
    - gabriel34 12y ago
      Because they hide most content behind a paywall (even content they don't own) and still allow it to be indexed by search engines. It is really frustrating to search for a more elusive document and find it on scribd only to discover its behind a paywall. They break down search engines by allowing indexation of unavailable content.
usumoio 12y ago
That's fine. Its super easy to sue someone. I could sue Facebook for having boring ads. Will my case go to a trial that I have a remote chance of winning...? Not a chance. This is the same thing.
cookiecaper 12y ago
This is the same as suing ICANN for providing a domain name or suing Layer3 for providing a Tier 1 backbone that allows users to connect to the "bad" site. On what basis do intermediate routers avoid liability for connecting to other sites? Shouldn't the same be applicable to TOR (The Onion Router), which is just another routing methodology?
jijji 12y ago
On page 8 of the document it says that the website owner of "pinkmeth.com" and the owner of TOR had a "meeting of the minds" and committed torts against the plaintiffs. That is quite a stretch.
jstalin 12y ago
I hate scribd. Please stop using it.
jijji 12y ago
You know you are big when you get sued by random states for doing nothing wrong
hxc 12y ago
I was looking on the Lawyer's website. Found this to be hilarious (located in the FAQ's) >Q: Is this firm owned by the same Jason Van Dyke that got PinkMeth.com shut down? A: Yes. We have helped victims of revenge pornography in the past and will continue to do so in the future?[1] I guess pinkmeth.com is already shutdown? I can still see the website up and working. [1]http://vandykelawfirm.com/index-1.html http://vandykelawfirm.com/index-1.html
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jebblue 12y ago
In the comments, there are insults and insinuations and implications of a negative manner towards Texas and Texans. Engaging in such negativity does not enhance or otherwise bolster one's stand in the general pragmatic view of the world.
- briandh 12y ago
  I was going to write something similar. It's pretty sad. It is especially perplexing given the large and growing tech industry in Texas -- not that such comments would be appropriate in its absence, either.
- zorbo 12y ago
  Can you point out those comments, because I see nothing of the kind? The only thing that comes even close is "Of course it's Texas I men where else would it be..." and that is obviously a jab at the unique way in which Texas deals with the law regarding all things IT.
- saryant 12y ago
  I pointed that out in a thread about patents once when a poster said we should poison the water in East Texas. I pointed out that no one ever says we should poison the water in Hollywood despite their repeated attacks on the internet, so why the double standard? The response was "he didn't say to poison all of you, just East Texas!" as if I shouldn't be offended because I lived (at the time) in San Antonio. facepalm
InTheArena 12y ago
I'm actually pretty disturbed by the comments here. Of all of the comments, I don't see a single one that basically goes after the fact that some one has a revenge porn site, that identifies users, and that is using TOR to enable it. I agree that most of this lawsuit w.r.t TOR is bogus - just like trying to sue the Internet for all of the stupid shit that goes on there. The one time I ventured into TOR (many many years ago), I got scared off immediately when I just saw the description of hidden services. Pure anonymity is almost as evil as no anonymity. Reading into the comment, it looks like the plaintiff was underage, had these posted against her consent, and then publicly distributed with her name attached. Unless TOR finds a way to balance enablement with responsibility, it will eventually slide into nothing more then the criminal underbelly of the Internet, and all that is vile about modern civilization.
- knd775 12y ago
  To be fair, that's pretty much where it is now anyway. There are a lot of great and legitimate uses for it (I use it occasionally for a few things), but already that's where the so-called Dark Net or Deep Web mostly lives. Also, you're naive if you think that the TOR Project should essentially curate or monitor sites. That's akin to saying that ICANN or someone else should make sure nothing illegal ever happens on the Internet.
- owenmarshall 12y ago
  >Unless TOR finds a way to balance enablement with responsibility, it will eventually slide into nothing more then the criminal underbelly of the Internet, and all that is vile about modern civilization. This is a really good point. The one thing to remember, though, is that criminals already have access to better tools for privacy than Tor. Million-node botnets, hacked servers, stolen identities... I'm not sure what Tor can do to improve the current situation.
- icebraining 12y ago
  I'm actually pretty disturbed by the comments here. Of all of the comments, I don't see a single one that basically goes after the fact that some one has a revenge porn site, that identifies users, and that is using TOR to enable it. Because there's nothing fruitful to discuss. Yes, it's a terrible thing and the people behind it should be prosecuted and convicted. Most of us take that for granted, there's no point in saying it. Pure anonymity is almost as evil as no anonymity. The thing is, when you're talking about important enough acts, like dissidence from authoritarian regimes, there's no such thing as "non-pure anonymity". You're either anonymous or imprisoned (or worse). So there's really no much we can do if we want to keep Tor as a useful tool for whistleblowers. After all, the same software that powers pinkmeth.com also powers SecureDrop; the technology can't tell your intentions.
deleted 12y ago
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eliteraspberrie 12y ago
Including the Tor project in this lawsuit is obviously out of ignorance, and won't succeed. Having said that, personally, I would just attack the hidden service directly. It's not particularly difficult to censor a node by DoS. More sophisticated attacks include setting up your own hidden service directory server and just return 404 for requests to PinkMeth. Researchers have shown it's possible and doesn't require much resources: Trawling for Tor Hidden Services: Detection, Measurement, Deanonymization. http://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2013/papers/4977a080.pdf http://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2013/papers/4977a080.pdf
- icebraining 12y ago
  For a court, it's probably better to issue a subpoena to the domain registrar to find who paid for it.
neurobro 12y ago
Disclaimer: Nobody here is attempting to "practice law" through HN comments unless they explicitly state otherwise. FFS.

290 points by mike-cardwell 12y ago

Relevant thread on the tor-talk mailing list: https://www.mail-archive.com/tor-talk@lists.torproject.org/msg14085.html https://www.mail-archive.com/tor-talk@lists.torproject.org/m...

jrockway 12y ago
Love the lawyer's Twitter page: "Owner of The Van Dyke Law Firm P.L.L.C. and quite possibly the meanest and most right-wing lawyer in Texas." I feel like there's another -est he's forgetting about.

linuxhansl 12y ago

Instead of letting it rest, Shelby (the plaintiff) will now be known to a far wider audience. Should have read up about the Streisand effect. The petition seems to be slightly clueless. Tor and Pinkmeth "conspired"? And then a list of anonymous comments from Pinkmeth... They clearly do not speak for Pinkmeth (or Tor). And who is this "Tor" anyway? Everybody who runs a relay or exit node? The software engineers? Yes, Tor can be used to transfer information. You also need a computer for that. Did that computer's manufacturer also conspire? What about about the routers that transmit the information?

synctext 12y ago
Clueless is the issue at play here it seems. This case has years of history. With some light digging you can find out that she also sued Verisign: http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/12/06/52881.htm http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/12/06/52881.htm Same thing happened there, lot of smoke, no substance.
- blossoms 12y ago
  Anybody have a link to the document? It's behind a paywall?
  - mpnordland 12y ago
    I seem to be able to access it, and I've never paid Scribd anything.
    - jasonlotito 12y ago
      They're referring to the document in the article. Not the article or scribd.
deciplex 12y ago
It's possible she's not too concerned that people see the pictures as such, but rather with the violation Pink Meth has committed here. That is, maybe she would be fine with every last human being viewing nude pictures of her, if it meant putting Pink Meth out of commission and punishing the people who run it.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

victoriabrinsly 12y ago

Appsted – Renowned Android Application Development http://www.appsted.com/services/android-development http://www.appsted.com/services/android-development

serf 12y ago

"However, unscrupulous Internet service companies such as TOR offer "private" or "anonymous" domain name hosting services that allow criminals such as Pinkmeth and its users to escape accountability for their actions. TOR even advertises that with their service "nobody would be able to determine who was offering the site, and nobody who offered the site would know who was posting to it." Wow. Weird to think of a non-profit software group which makes software that aims to decentralize/anonymize parts of the web through mostly the bandwidth of the users of their product as an "Internet service company", but I suppose it is. Kinda.

malka 12y ago
The TOR project NEVER provided a service, if I am not mistaken. They provide the software, and that's it.
- icebraining 12y ago
  Actually, they do: the Directory Servers, which the clients use for knowing about other nodes. For example: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/time-directory-authority-outside-useu https://blog.torproject.org/blog/time-directory-authority-ou...
  - belorn 12y ago
    A Directory Server is akin to ARIN, in that it's a directory of all the nodes and their location in the network. Suing ARIN (and services like it) because there is a website somewhere which is connected to the INTERNET is a new form of silliness not seen before. Sure, technically, ARIN do "perform a service" which "enables" a revenge site to operate, but it is so indirect, so remote from the offending party, that it is just silly.
    - forgottenpass 12y ago
      A Directory Server is also akin to a torrent tracker or website hosting links to tv shows on another video service's website. No not exactly, but unless you have the legal arguments so that it will not be treated as such by the courts, I'm just putting it out there.

RobAley 12y ago

I've never read one of these in full before, and I'm somewhat bemused by section 9.1., which is a prayer. Is that a normal, usual or required part of such a complaint? Seems quite out of place to me.

jonnybgood 12y ago
It's what the plaintiff wants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_relief http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_relief
spacemanmatt 12y ago
Not all prayer is directed toward a supernatural entity.
- RobAley 12y ago
  Indeed, but it sounds out of place regardless of the target. Now I understand what it is, "request" or similar seems a more appropriate word. "Prayer" evokes some kind super-legal meaning or precedence onto the request that is out of place in a matter-of-fact setting.
teachingaway 12y ago
Really sounds out of place. I always cringe when I write it. Sometimes I'll change it to "Request for Relief", and I've never had a judge comment on the change.

onion2k 12y ago

This is a good thing, because unless provision of anonymity is tested in court and shown to be legal and useful there's always the possibility that it's not protected by law and people will be in danger of getting sued or imprisoned if they make anonymising services. Far better to test it in court with a stupid revenge porn website than testing it with a case of, for example, a whistleblower where authorities feels they need to win. With some previous precedents set it'll make it far harder to argue that providers of anonymity are responsible or culpable when it actually matters.

tragic 12y ago
> Far better to test it in court with a stupid revenge porn website than testing it with a case of, for example, a whistleblower where authorities feels they need to win. Disclaimer: I'm one of the less privacy-obsessed posters on here. Even so: really? Hypothetically speaking, if the US state apparatus wants to clamp down on Tor and anonymising services, then you don't want your test case to be a whistleblower for whom there may turn out to be wider public sympathy. You want it to be some obvious, incontrovertible scumbag. Plays much, much nicer in the public gallery. That's just how it's done. Cf. how a more punitive defamation regime in the UK was won on the back not of politicians trying to protect their expenses or some such, but the hacking of a dead teenager's voicemail and various other dirty tricks of the gutter press. This is just the way you do things.
- xophe 12y ago
  Yes, exactly this. If they lose, then there's going to be precedent for when the stakes are high. And I can't see how they can totally escape culpability, since they can't even turn over the source if they wanted to. The anonymity Tor provides is fundamental from an Internet activist perspective but in the eyes of the law (and the world outside our tech bubble) it's aiding and abetting. There's a reason why we're not allowed to have encrypted landlines. I don't feel good about this at all.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    > There's a reason why we're not allowed to have encrypted landlines. Wait, what? Is that true? It isn't true, as far as I know, in the UK.

Fuxy 12y ago

Of course it's Texas I men where else would it be... I never considered Tor an ISP since their using their users connections to the internet which they have already payed for and are sharing for free but ok. I would call it more of a social network where everybody is helping everybody else stay anonymous. Tor project offer private and anonymous domain name hosting? Well technically maybe but not really... it's not like you can access .onion domains without installing Tor and if you do install Tor you're opting to be anonymous. How does this work if a program is offering anything close to the domain to IP resolution used on the internet while preserving your anonymity within their ecosystem they are breaking the law? It's a piece of software designed to preserve you privacy and anonymity of course everything in its ecosystem is going to do that and their going to advertize that.

artpar 12y ago

So whats next, sue "The Internet" for there are websites like the pirate bay ? Did I get the anology right ?

dctoedt 12y ago

The defendants, which apparently are not residents of Texas, will probably exercise their statutory right to "remove" [1] this lawsuit, so that instead of the case being heard in the Texas state court in Denton, it'll be in the federal court in Dallas [2]. We can expect the defendants to move to dismiss the case on the merits, on grounds that their conduct is protected by Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act [3]. Whether they'll succeed is another question, especially as to Pinkmeth, and Tor might have an uphill battle as well. We can also expect the defendants to move to dismiss on procedural grounds -- they will claim that they don't have enough contact with Texas to be properly subject to suit there (here) [4]. That too will probably be the subject of "satellite" litigation in pre-trial motion practice. This won't be an inexpensive exercise for the defendants, just in terms of legal fees. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_jurisdiction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_jurisdiction [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_Northern_District_of_Texas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_fo... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communicatio... [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_jurisdiction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_jurisdiction

300bps 12y ago
More likely the Defendants have expected this type of thing to happen and are completely judgment proof. Anyone in a profession likely to be sued is smart to put asset protection at the forefront of their financial life and these guys would have to be insane not to have done that.
- AlyssaRowan 12y ago
  When you say "these guys", do you mean the Tor project? If so, they are at much higher risk than mere lawsuits, and they are quite well aware of that. The Electronic Frontier Foundation previously hosted the Tor project on tor.eff.org until it moved to torproject.org - I would expect a very forceful response and representation from EFF, probably already being drafted. (If you meant the 'revenge porn website' in question, I've no idea, but that's not the interesting part here.)
12y ago

pron 12y ago

This is the most important bit, IMO: CAUSES OF ACTION AGAINST TOR 6.1 A civil conspiracy consists of a combination of two or more persons to accomplish an unlawful purpose or a lawful purpose by unlawful means. 6.2 Pinkmeth and TOR conspired to and had a meeting of the minds regarding the commission certain torts against Plaintiff more adequately described in paragraphs 5.1 - 5.15 above, as well as certain felony offense described in paragraph 4.8 and 4.9 above. The specific object to be accomplished by the conspiracy was the publication pornographic images of Plaintiff (and other women) on the Pinkmeth website in such a manner so as to prevent its operators and users from being held civilly and criminally accountable for this unlawful behavior.

lucaspiller 12y ago

The interesting part to me is that the court claims it has jurisdiction because it is accessible in Texas and to Texas residents: > This Court has jurisdiction over the website and all of its administrators under the Texas Long Arm Statute because they (a) operate illegal"involuntary pornography" or "revenge pornography" websites on the World Wide Web that are accessible to and targets residents of the State of Texas > This Court has jurisdiction over TOR because it (a) advertises and offers the services referenced above in Texas and to Texas residents

blossoms 12y ago
Any internet website can be attacked this same way.
SynchrotronZ 12y ago
It's not much different from from Apple having to abide by EU laws if it wants to sell its product in Europe. Or to invoke 'think of the children'[1], the prosecution of Child Pornography websites hosted/owned by foreign nationals. [1] There really should be some form of Goodwin's Law for this by now.
- monochr 12y ago
  If Europe overreached as much as this judge every single Apple device would be 220v 60Hz with a two round pin adapter. The reason why this isn't is that Apple needs to comply with European laws and standards in Europe. Not in the US or whichever other hellhole uses 110V 50Hz mains.
  - blossoms 12y ago
    Afaik Apple's switching power supplies support the specifications you described (for example, see Mac Mini's tech specs https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/specs.html https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/specs.html -- 50-60Hz 100-240v AC). Not to mention Apple sells region-specialized units just like every other major computer retailer.
  - deleted 12y ago

mariuolo 12y ago

I wonder if they could be compelled to sabotage the security of TOR à la lavabit or allegedly Truecrypt.

AlyssaRowan 12y ago
We'd know; and, no.
danielweber 12y ago
"Allegedly" can hide a lot of accusations.

throwaway283719 12y ago

The tl;dr seems to be that "pinkmeth.com" is a revenge porn site (who are also being sued) and that the Tor Project is being sued because they "knowingly assist sites such as pinkmeth.com".

xophe 12y ago

>> Suing a revenge porn site. Fair, next. Oh wait there's more. From https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq-abuse.html.en https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq-abuse.html.en >> Tor aims to provide protection for ordinary people who want to follow the law. Only criminals have privacy right now, and we need to fix that. True, but distribution has always been the hard part in any kind of scalable criminal activity, and Tor is unwittingly facilitating this. There's definitely a case here against PinkMeth.com. Revenge porn sites don't really receive protection under fair use. So here's the sticky part. Here's Tor's hidden services overview: https://www.torproject.org/docs/hidden-services.html.en https://www.torproject.org/docs/hidden-services.html.en Since the hidden services are themselves run over Tor, it looks to me like the only thing Tor can do is refuse to serve PinkMeth.com without identifying the agents. Which might be good for privacy precedent on the one hand, but bad if Tor as a result receives all the flack for all criminal activity run over Tor -- that means Tor relays (who are identifiable) are next. Ideas to save Tor?

deleted 12y ago
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wcummings 12y ago
"Blocking" sites, were this feisible, would be the death of Tor, not its savior.

cones688 12y ago

There's something quite ironic about this statement if you swap out Pinkmeth and nude photographs and replace with US government: "Pinkmeth has intentionally intruded on Plaintiffs solitude, seclusion or private affairs. Specifically, Pinkmeth gained unauthorized access to nude photographs constituting the property of Plaintiff"

enneff 12y ago

I'm sitting here wondering what possible motivation someone might have for running a site like Pinkmeth. It's one thing to share the amateur porn, but why share the names and locations?

pjc50 12y ago
Misogyny?
- walshemj 12y ago
  or blackmail pay us x or ....
  - danielweber 12y ago
    Yes, blackmail. "Pay us to take it down."
67726e 12y ago
Clearly it is a public service. Doesn't everyone cross-reference their dates with these kinds of sites? I obviously wouldn't want to wind up with someone stupid enough to get their nude pics AND contact information on the internet. Either that or someone is just attempting to facilitate trolling/being a dick.
- criswell 12y ago
  I don't think it's a matter of stupidity. Nude pics can get online through a stolen phone, lost phone or a breached account of some sort. Once you have a picture of someones face it's pretty easy to get a name through the right channels.
  - 67726e 12y ago
    Having nude photos of oneself on a device that is easily stolen in an easily accessible, unprotected manner sounds pretty stupid to me.

voltagex_ 12y ago

Could this be a case of advertising for the lawyer involved? The Twitter feed is... interesting. https://twitter.com/MeanTXLawyer https://twitter.com/MeanTXLawyer

ninjin 12y ago
This guy, he previously threatened @pinkmeth over on Twitter to "make an exception to not beating women" if it turned out that @pinkmeth was a woman, there was also a tweet about his backyard, a gun and a shovel. Being the class act that he is, he now appears to have removed them, is it even legal to make those kinds of threats in the first place?
- Filligree 12y ago
  IANAL, but no, I don't believe death threats are legal.
  - spacemanmatt 12y ago
    Preemptory death threats are part of the path to disbarment. I hope defendants can nail those tweets to him in court.
- jebus989 12y ago
  Still present: https://twitter.com/MeanTXLawyer/status/483692810684493825 https://twitter.com/MeanTXLawyer/status/483692810684493825 Not sure the account is legit however.
67726e 12y ago
Possibly, though there is an alleged victim, Shelby Conklin, of the pinkmeth site involved in the case. It isn't clear if she found the lawyer or if the lawyer found her though.

Kyris 12y ago

This is like suing the women's clothes shop that sold the tights to a person who then used the tights to conceal their identity whilst robbing a bank. Ban Tights! We must stop people wearing tights. The world will not be free whilst people can buy tights.

AlyssaRowan 12y ago

Not a lawyer, let alone a Texas lawyer. But two pages in and plaintiff has already seemingly misrepresented to the court: where does Tor's website show that they are aware of either this particular hidden service, or this site? There most certainly cannot be any "conspiracy" with someone they don't know about, or any "meeting of the minds" without evidence they've even spoken! That's just plain clear old-fashioned bullshit. I've never heard of it before and there are no indications that they found the "pinkmeth.com" site hard to serve at all: it's a .com. Tor should be discharged as a party: they are completely irrelevant to this case.

spacemanmatt 12y ago
pro se litigants rock my news ticker.
- DanBC 12y ago
  This is not pro se. She has a real lawyer representing her.
  - AlyssaRowan 12y ago
    Indeed, which I find remarkable.
  - teachingaway 12y ago
    "Real Lawyer"... technically true... But the lawyer doesn't appear to know much about the relevant law or technology. He does have a pic of himself photoshopped into a courthouse. Weirdly floating at the bottom of this page: http://vandykelawfirm.com/index-2.html http://vandykelawfirm.com/index-2.html
madaxe_again 12y ago
Yeah, but the suit has been raised in Texas, and plain clear old-fashioned bullshit seems to fly just fine there, going by patent/IP cases and the like. I think this is going to be interesting - as I think the plaintiff will win in Texas against both parties, and this could end up being a significant tort case, if it ends up in higher courts.

neurobro 12y ago

I feel bad for the plaintiff. First her pictures were posted to that site, which apparently caused enough distress to seek counsel. And now, despite virtually no chance of redress for her, the whole thing will be far more publicized so this lawyer can throw a hail mary and try to make a name for himself.

keithpeter 12y ago
And the wide publicity resulting from the political fallout of a legal case touching TOR, one hopes the 'torch and pitchfork' elements will back off a bit.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

crackling 12y ago

Clue stick for "the thickest and most misogynistic lawyer in Texas": claiming that Tor "provides a service" is no different from claiming that gun manufacturers "provide murders committed with firearms".

jheriko 12y ago

As much as I don't like the litigation culture or 'the man' stepping on 'the little guy' as a result - but if the little guy is being a dick and acting in violation of the spirit of the law then let him stomp away in defence of other little people... the world will be better for it. If you provide the means to do something wrong - no matter what your intent - you are still responsible because without your actions the wrong would not have come to pass.

cruise02 12y ago
Bullshit. If I make steak knives for a living, am I responsible when someone gets stabbed?
- menubar 12y ago
  But what if your steak knife product was called "Fatal Revenge Stabber for Ex-Girlfriends and Steak"?
  - cruise02 12y ago
    That's a valid point. I'd probably take some heat for that.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- jheriko 12y ago
  a little bit yes. if you didn't make that knife they may have found another one... but that doesn't stop that they took your work and used it for harm. i'm sorry that reality is harsh.
  - nknighthb 12y ago
    What a bizarre worldview. Is a pipe manufacturer is responsible when someone drowns in a bathtub?

xeroxmalf 12y ago

Are they suing tor2web[0] as well, seeing as the "AKA" listed includes the tor2web address, *.onion.lt, or just another example of this lawyers lack of research? [0] https://tor2web.org https://tor2web.org

mpnordland 12y ago

I'm sorry, but the plaintiff in this case nor her lawyer cannot possibly be technically capable of understanding what happens with Tor. Section 4.4 reveals this by saying: " The World Wide Web operates using web "browsers" ... to read a web-based programming language commonly known as HTML." Will people never learn the difference between markup and programming?

mortov 12y ago
You would have thought they would have learned that since they apparently first sued in 2012 - 2 years is surely long enough to learn about the internet ? http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/12/06/52881.htm http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/12/06/52881.htm

ahunt09 12y ago

Petty, I know, but "The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICAAN)" (?)

SquareWheel 12y ago

Is there a non-scribd link?

yebyen 12y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=954967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=954967 "Scribd was seed funded by Y Combinator."
- yebyen 12y ago
  This was in the top google results looking for a connection, I knew it was a fact but I don't know why people hate on Scribd or why it would be considered ethically or morally wrong... I think it's relevant that Scribd is supported by Y-Combinator. Is there a reason why you don't want to click through to Scribd and press download?
  - gabriel34 12y ago
    Because they hide most content behind a paywall (even content they don't own) and still allow it to be indexed by search engines. It is really frustrating to search for a more elusive document and find it on scribd only to discover its behind a paywall. They break down search engines by allowing indexation of unavailable content.

usumoio 12y ago

That's fine. Its super easy to sue someone. I could sue Facebook for having boring ads. Will my case go to a trial that I have a remote chance of winning...? Not a chance. This is the same thing.

cookiecaper 12y ago

This is the same as suing ICANN for providing a domain name or suing Layer3 for providing a Tier 1 backbone that allows users to connect to the "bad" site. On what basis do intermediate routers avoid liability for connecting to other sites? Shouldn't the same be applicable to TOR (The Onion Router), which is just another routing methodology?

jijji 12y ago

On page 8 of the document it says that the website owner of "pinkmeth.com" and the owner of TOR had a "meeting of the minds" and committed torts against the plaintiffs. That is quite a stretch.

jstalin 12y ago

I hate scribd. Please stop using it.

jijji 12y ago

You know you are big when you get sued by random states for doing nothing wrong

hxc 12y ago

I was looking on the Lawyer's website. Found this to be hilarious (located in the FAQ's) >Q: Is this firm owned by the same Jason Van Dyke that got PinkMeth.com shut down? A: Yes. We have helped victims of revenge pornography in the past and will continue to do so in the future?[1] I guess pinkmeth.com is already shutdown? I can still see the website up and working. [1]http://vandykelawfirm.com/index-1.html http://vandykelawfirm.com/index-1.html

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

jebblue 12y ago

In the comments, there are insults and insinuations and implications of a negative manner towards Texas and Texans. Engaging in such negativity does not enhance or otherwise bolster one's stand in the general pragmatic view of the world.

briandh 12y ago
I was going to write something similar. It's pretty sad. It is especially perplexing given the large and growing tech industry in Texas -- not that such comments would be appropriate in its absence, either.
zorbo 12y ago
Can you point out those comments, because I see nothing of the kind? The only thing that comes even close is "Of course it's Texas I men where else would it be..." and that is obviously a jab at the unique way in which Texas deals with the law regarding all things IT.
saryant 12y ago
I pointed that out in a thread about patents once when a poster said we should poison the water in East Texas. I pointed out that no one ever says we should poison the water in Hollywood despite their repeated attacks on the internet, so why the double standard? The response was "he didn't say to poison all of you, just East Texas!" as if I shouldn't be offended because I lived (at the time) in San Antonio. facepalm

InTheArena 12y ago

I'm actually pretty disturbed by the comments here. Of all of the comments, I don't see a single one that basically goes after the fact that some one has a revenge porn site, that identifies users, and that is using TOR to enable it. I agree that most of this lawsuit w.r.t TOR is bogus - just like trying to sue the Internet for all of the stupid shit that goes on there. The one time I ventured into TOR (many many years ago), I got scared off immediately when I just saw the description of hidden services. Pure anonymity is almost as evil as no anonymity. Reading into the comment, it looks like the plaintiff was underage, had these posted against her consent, and then publicly distributed with her name attached. Unless TOR finds a way to balance enablement with responsibility, it will eventually slide into nothing more then the criminal underbelly of the Internet, and all that is vile about modern civilization.

knd775 12y ago
To be fair, that's pretty much where it is now anyway. There are a lot of great and legitimate uses for it (I use it occasionally for a few things), but already that's where the so-called Dark Net or Deep Web mostly lives. Also, you're naive if you think that the TOR Project should essentially curate or monitor sites. That's akin to saying that ICANN or someone else should make sure nothing illegal ever happens on the Internet.
owenmarshall 12y ago
>Unless TOR finds a way to balance enablement with responsibility, it will eventually slide into nothing more then the criminal underbelly of the Internet, and all that is vile about modern civilization. This is a really good point. The one thing to remember, though, is that criminals already have access to better tools for privacy than Tor. Million-node botnets, hacked servers, stolen identities... I'm not sure what Tor can do to improve the current situation.
icebraining 12y ago
I'm actually pretty disturbed by the comments here. Of all of the comments, I don't see a single one that basically goes after the fact that some one has a revenge porn site, that identifies users, and that is using TOR to enable it. Because there's nothing fruitful to discuss. Yes, it's a terrible thing and the people behind it should be prosecuted and convicted. Most of us take that for granted, there's no point in saying it. Pure anonymity is almost as evil as no anonymity. The thing is, when you're talking about important enough acts, like dissidence from authoritarian regimes, there's no such thing as "non-pure anonymity". You're either anonymous or imprisoned (or worse). So there's really no much we can do if we want to keep Tor as a useful tool for whistleblowers. After all, the same software that powers pinkmeth.com also powers SecureDrop; the technology can't tell your intentions.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

eliteraspberrie 12y ago

Including the Tor project in this lawsuit is obviously out of ignorance, and won't succeed. Having said that, personally, I would just attack the hidden service directly. It's not particularly difficult to censor a node by DoS. More sophisticated attacks include setting up your own hidden service directory server and just return 404 for requests to PinkMeth. Researchers have shown it's possible and doesn't require much resources: Trawling for Tor Hidden Services: Detection, Measurement, Deanonymization. http://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2013/papers/4977a080.pdf http://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2013/papers/4977a080.pdf

icebraining 12y ago
For a court, it's probably better to issue a subpoena to the domain registrar to find who paid for it.

neurobro 12y ago

Disclaimer: Nobody here is attempting to "practice law" through HN comments unless they explicitly state otherwise. FFS.