5 ms·

Isn't the real problem a lack of good micro-payment systems? I think the vast majority of readers would be happy to pay 10 cents or 50 cents for an article, if

Isn't the real problem a lack of good micro-payment systems? I think the vast majority of readers would be happy to pay 10 cents or 50 cents for an article, if it didn't take $20 of their time to do it (e.g., create account, login, enter credit card, etc.). Look at how many people happily paid for downloading music once it was made easy enough (i.e., via iTunes). What ever happened to micro-payments, which once were the next big thing?

msellout 12y ago
It turned out that subscriptions generate more revenue than micro-payments.
- kevinwang 12y ago
  but maybe this is only because there isn't an existing, good micro-payment system.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Well, "being in existance" is a inherent quality of something being better. So, until there is a "good micro-payment system", the same can be said for anything. "Patronage would be better, it's just that there isn't an existing good patronage system", etc etc.
tempestn 12y ago
Even better from a user's perspective (although undoubtedly untenable revenue-wise) would be micro-payments after reading the article. I'd much rather pay for something after I have a chance to determine its value. Perhaps showing a preview then a paywall to read the rest would work, but the vast majority of those I've seen use far too short a preview to really tell whether the article is worth reading.
prawn 12y ago
I always wondered if micropayments couldn't operate on a retroactive/guilt basis. e.g., you read articles as you would without a paywall and a cookie tracks your totals. At a certain point and every now and then thereafter, the site would tell you how many articles you've enjoyed freely, remind you of the professionals creating those articles and ask you to contribute based on your usage. Pay what you want, but suggest a typical value, etc. Never got around to building a solution for it, but figured a startup could tackle this pretty easily with some code that clients could copy and paste to get started.
- walterbell 12y ago
  Flattr has been doing this for a few years. One of their best innovations was allowing people to "tip" publishers by simply favoriting a tweet: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130416/01322422720/unfortunate-twitter-forces-flattr-to-stop-its-twitter-integration.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130416/01322422720/unfor... Sadly, Twitter in their infinite desire to shoot their platform in the foot, put an end to Twitter micropayments. Flattr even offered to forego all fees, although revshare would have made more sense. Facebook could also do something in this area, by linking Like to payments, though that may conflict with their use of non-deterministic timelines as a penalty for non-advertisers. Instead of gating demand (with ad-throttling of publishers), what would happen if social media taxed publishing value with optional micropayments via likes/favorites? Twitter went to a lot of trouble to terminate third-party clients so they could control user interface monetization, e.g. inject ads & video. But what have they done with that control? Executive musical chairs have already started at Twitter. It's not too late to reverse strategic mistakes and re-open the Twitter platform to 3rd-party innovation.
  - prawn 12y ago
    AFAIK, Flattr requires people to make a conscious decision to sign up and then flattr content. My suggestion is that content providers count content accesses and then suggest payment with justification. It could work for sites with regularly returning visitors like forums and news sites.
- tinypass 12y ago
  Tinypass does exactly this with its "Counter" feature that displays to readers how many free previews they have left in the metered paywall. Then, when the meter expires, the content is blocked or a donation is requested. Hundreds of publishers are using the platform. http://tinypass.com http://tinypass.com
  - prawn 12y ago
    Something like that but without the barrier/limit that stops people from continuing to browse the site. With Tinypass: hits limit of 10 articles, donation of $5 requested; non-payers go elsewhere for their content With my hypothetical: user ignores donation at 10 articles, maybe gets to 100. Isn't going to a competitor for content. Potentially decides that 100 articles seems like a lot, surely that's worth at least $5.
aleem 12y ago
Micropayments suffers from a number of issues. If my monthly spend it $1 across 20 articles at 5 cents each then a single customer support query is likely to eat up months worth of margins for my account. Refunds are going to be just as hard. Operational costs are also generally quite high for processing payments across thousands of vendors across the Internet which requires not transaction processing, auditing, logging and so forth. There are also practical issues such as building a common processing platform that can be used the same currency across competitors (Microsoft, NYTimes, Google News, etc), currency exchange rates, and so forth. That said, if there were a pay-per-use model, I would happily use it without thinking twice about spending 5 cents on an article.
- jzwinck 12y ago
  5 cents per article is not realistic. The rate for a basic New York Times subscription is $3.75 per week. At 5 cents per article, their average user would have to elect to pay for 75 articles per week. I don't have access to the data to know for sure, but let's guess an average user reads 3 articles per week. They'd need to pay $1.25 for each...which is probably high enough to convince them not to read some content, which is counter-productive. So it may be better business to avoid per-article purchasing, if it further reduces readership which is very undesirable.
  - Shivetya 12y ago
    why not pay to an operator who bundles various sites together? I could see it operating like CATV, you find a group of related sites whose content you enjoy and you pay a monthly or rechargeable account to view articles on that site without being prompted by each site.
  - greenpresident 12y ago
    This may prove popular internationally though. An issue of The New Yorker is more than 10€ per week, it gets you a magazine full of 'Going out in New York' and 'Talk of the town'. I know several people who would gladly pay a fee for access to the longer pieces and reports that the OP's article talks about. For them it would be nicest if they could pay per article.
pgsandstrom 12y ago
The problem with micro-payments is that the customer is always reminded that they are paying for the service. The subscription-model will always be superior in this way.
gabemart 12y ago
I've always thought the biggest problem with micropayments is the mental cost of deciding whether or not to purchase something. Decisions are painful, and deciding whether or not to spend $0.20 online isn't much less painful that deciding to spend $2.00 or $20.00 online. The pain of deciding whether or not to spend $0.20 far, far outweighs the value of the $0.20 to me. This suggests micropayments are an inefficient payment system. Being asked whether or not I want to spend $0.25 or $0.50 twenty or fifty times a day is not an appealing prospect. In short, don't make me think.
- aragot 12y ago
  The compound problem with micropayments is, they'd still make you go through the loop of sign up-receive the newsletter-download the app, which would offset the advantage of the micropayment and corroborates your "Dont make me think" motto.
- mcherm 12y ago
  There is a solution to that problem -- pay AFTER reading the article. Now you don't have to predict the article's value; you know what it was. This solution comes with its own problem: after reading, there is absolutely no incentive to pay other than good will. And most won't pay.
  - prawn 12y ago
    Besides the lack of incentive, there's also no actual way to pay!
  - eevilspock 12y ago
    I've been thinking about an idea that would solve this: Readers subscribe to a federation of publishers for, say, 10 or 20 dollars a month. After they read an article, they can click either a "worth it", "meh" or "garbage" button. At the end of the month, all subscription fees are distributed to each publisher proportional to their "worth it" votes. This will drive up quality. If "garbage" votes are penalized, it will discourage bad content as well as link-baiting, dishonest titles or any other gaming of traffic. The primary impetus is to get the internet off of advertising. It's an absolute fallacy that ads give us content and services for free. It actually makes the web much more expensive: 1. The advertisers who pay google get their money from us, added to the prices of the things we buy. There is no free lunch. 2. The overhead cost of advertising is huge and we pay for that too. 3. We pay the opportunity cost of a product that cannot put users first because they live or die by giving advertisers what they want (and what we want indirectly and secondarily). This includes both the cost of lost privacy as well as well as design that optimizes advertising revenue. As has been said, we are more Google's products than we are their customers. 4. We pay the social costs. Democracy and the free market assume people make voting and purchasing decisions based on facts and reason. Advertising as predominantly about manipulation and deceit. I believe this is the most expensive cost of services that rely on advertising revenue. Added together, we are paying a lot more for "free" web searches and email than if we could just straight up pay Google for straight-up ad-free versions. [This is a condensed version of a more detailed case with reference links that I made here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7485773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7485773]
Spooky23 12y ago
Nobody likes nickel and dime stuff. I'm not paying a quarter to read a single article when I could subscribe to a whole year of the New Yorker for $15.

msellout 12y ago

It turned out that subscriptions generate more revenue than micro-payments.

kevinwang 12y ago
but maybe this is only because there isn't an existing, good micro-payment system.
- coldtea 12y ago
  Well, "being in existance" is a inherent quality of something being better. So, until there is a "good micro-payment system", the same can be said for anything. "Patronage would be better, it's just that there isn't an existing good patronage system", etc etc.

tempestn 12y ago

Even better from a user's perspective (although undoubtedly untenable revenue-wise) would be micro-payments after reading the article. I'd much rather pay for something after I have a chance to determine its value. Perhaps showing a preview then a paywall to read the rest would work, but the vast majority of those I've seen use far too short a preview to really tell whether the article is worth reading.

prawn 12y ago

I always wondered if micropayments couldn't operate on a retroactive/guilt basis. e.g., you read articles as you would without a paywall and a cookie tracks your totals. At a certain point and every now and then thereafter, the site would tell you how many articles you've enjoyed freely, remind you of the professionals creating those articles and ask you to contribute based on your usage. Pay what you want, but suggest a typical value, etc. Never got around to building a solution for it, but figured a startup could tackle this pretty easily with some code that clients could copy and paste to get started.

walterbell 12y ago
Flattr has been doing this for a few years. One of their best innovations was allowing people to "tip" publishers by simply favoriting a tweet: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130416/01322422720/unfortunate-twitter-forces-flattr-to-stop-its-twitter-integration.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130416/01322422720/unfor... Sadly, Twitter in their infinite desire to shoot their platform in the foot, put an end to Twitter micropayments. Flattr even offered to forego all fees, although revshare would have made more sense. Facebook could also do something in this area, by linking Like to payments, though that may conflict with their use of non-deterministic timelines as a penalty for non-advertisers. Instead of gating demand (with ad-throttling of publishers), what would happen if social media taxed publishing value with optional micropayments via likes/favorites? Twitter went to a lot of trouble to terminate third-party clients so they could control user interface monetization, e.g. inject ads & video. But what have they done with that control? Executive musical chairs have already started at Twitter. It's not too late to reverse strategic mistakes and re-open the Twitter platform to 3rd-party innovation.
- prawn 12y ago
  AFAIK, Flattr requires people to make a conscious decision to sign up and then flattr content. My suggestion is that content providers count content accesses and then suggest payment with justification. It could work for sites with regularly returning visitors like forums and news sites.
tinypass 12y ago
Tinypass does exactly this with its "Counter" feature that displays to readers how many free previews they have left in the metered paywall. Then, when the meter expires, the content is blocked or a donation is requested. Hundreds of publishers are using the platform. http://tinypass.com http://tinypass.com
- prawn 12y ago
  Something like that but without the barrier/limit that stops people from continuing to browse the site. With Tinypass: hits limit of 10 articles, donation of $5 requested; non-payers go elsewhere for their content With my hypothetical: user ignores donation at 10 articles, maybe gets to 100. Isn't going to a competitor for content. Potentially decides that 100 articles seems like a lot, surely that's worth at least $5.

aleem 12y ago

Micropayments suffers from a number of issues. If my monthly spend it $1 across 20 articles at 5 cents each then a single customer support query is likely to eat up months worth of margins for my account. Refunds are going to be just as hard. Operational costs are also generally quite high for processing payments across thousands of vendors across the Internet which requires not transaction processing, auditing, logging and so forth. There are also practical issues such as building a common processing platform that can be used the same currency across competitors (Microsoft, NYTimes, Google News, etc), currency exchange rates, and so forth. That said, if there were a pay-per-use model, I would happily use it without thinking twice about spending 5 cents on an article.

jzwinck 12y ago
5 cents per article is not realistic. The rate for a basic New York Times subscription is $3.75 per week. At 5 cents per article, their average user would have to elect to pay for 75 articles per week. I don't have access to the data to know for sure, but let's guess an average user reads 3 articles per week. They'd need to pay $1.25 for each...which is probably high enough to convince them not to read some content, which is counter-productive. So it may be better business to avoid per-article purchasing, if it further reduces readership which is very undesirable.
- Shivetya 12y ago
  why not pay to an operator who bundles various sites together? I could see it operating like CATV, you find a group of related sites whose content you enjoy and you pay a monthly or rechargeable account to view articles on that site without being prompted by each site.
- greenpresident 12y ago
  This may prove popular internationally though. An issue of The New Yorker is more than 10€ per week, it gets you a magazine full of 'Going out in New York' and 'Talk of the town'. I know several people who would gladly pay a fee for access to the longer pieces and reports that the OP's article talks about. For them it would be nicest if they could pay per article.

pgsandstrom 12y ago

The problem with micro-payments is that the customer is always reminded that they are paying for the service. The subscription-model will always be superior in this way.

gabemart 12y ago

I've always thought the biggest problem with micropayments is the mental cost of deciding whether or not to purchase something. Decisions are painful, and deciding whether or not to spend $0.20 online isn't much less painful that deciding to spend $2.00 or $20.00 online. The pain of deciding whether or not to spend $0.20 far, far outweighs the value of the $0.20 to me. This suggests micropayments are an inefficient payment system. Being asked whether or not I want to spend $0.25 or $0.50 twenty or fifty times a day is not an appealing prospect. In short, don't make me think.

aragot 12y ago
The compound problem with micropayments is, they'd still make you go through the loop of sign up-receive the newsletter-download the app, which would offset the advantage of the micropayment and corroborates your "Dont make me think" motto.
mcherm 12y ago
There is a solution to that problem -- pay AFTER reading the article. Now you don't have to predict the article's value; you know what it was. This solution comes with its own problem: after reading, there is absolutely no incentive to pay other than good will. And most won't pay.
- prawn 12y ago
  Besides the lack of incentive, there's also no actual way to pay!
- eevilspock 12y ago
  I've been thinking about an idea that would solve this: Readers subscribe to a federation of publishers for, say, 10 or 20 dollars a month. After they read an article, they can click either a "worth it", "meh" or "garbage" button. At the end of the month, all subscription fees are distributed to each publisher proportional to their "worth it" votes. This will drive up quality. If "garbage" votes are penalized, it will discourage bad content as well as link-baiting, dishonest titles or any other gaming of traffic. The primary impetus is to get the internet off of advertising. It's an absolute fallacy that ads give us content and services for free. It actually makes the web much more expensive: 1. The advertisers who pay google get their money from us, added to the prices of the things we buy. There is no free lunch. 2. The overhead cost of advertising is huge and we pay for that too. 3. We pay the opportunity cost of a product that cannot put users first because they live or die by giving advertisers what they want (and what we want indirectly and secondarily). This includes both the cost of lost privacy as well as well as design that optimizes advertising revenue. As has been said, we are more Google's products than we are their customers. 4. We pay the social costs. Democracy and the free market assume people make voting and purchasing decisions based on facts and reason. Advertising as predominantly about manipulation and deceit. I believe this is the most expensive cost of services that rely on advertising revenue. Added together, we are paying a lot more for "free" web searches and email than if we could just straight up pay Google for straight-up ad-free versions. [This is a condensed version of a more detailed case with reference links that I made here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7485773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7485773]

Spooky23 12y ago

Nobody likes nickel and dime stuff. I'm not paying a quarter to read a single article when I could subscribe to a whole year of the New Yorker for $15.