5 ms·

Except it isn't - you need to consider the costs of not just Windows, but all the software surrounding it. Photoshop licenses, Visual Studio licenses, Office li

by zanny 12y ago

Except it isn't - you need to consider the costs of not just Windows, but all the software surrounding it. Photoshop licenses, Visual Studio licenses, Office licenses, etc. Even at business rates. Per workstation, $3000 can be an underestimate. Meanwhile, using Gimp / Krita / LibreOffice / kdev etc and, at the scale of a city like Munich, just having a dev team to fix the localized problems the city has in the software, or having a fund to bounty bugs and features the city wants, would be cheaper in the long run, and leave the city in control of its own software infrastructure.

ams6110 12y ago
Not to mention the big kahunas, Exchange, Sharepoint, AD, SQL Server licenses.
- Titanous 12y ago
  And don't forget the humans that support everything.
  - scholia 12y ago
    The humans being vastly more expensive than either the software or the hardware... which is why Munich is most likely in a deep financial hole over this project, due to the huge waste of staff time
- velodrome 12y ago
  Is there an opensource alternative for Sharepoint?
  - nmrm 12y ago
    Some things claim to be, but not really. You can write down the list of sharepoint features you need, and then find individual OSS projects that fill the gap. It's not a one-stop thing, but it doesn't have to be a deal breaker either.
    - eru 12y ago
      And to be honest, you wouldn't want one-for-one replacement for sharepoint. Sharepoint is awful.
  - stefanve 12y ago
    SharePoint is a Jack of all trades, master of none so based on you requirements you have to choose the right tool most of which are OSS or at the very least non depended on Windows
    - velodrome 12y ago
      Could you name few? Anything would be helpful.
      - stefanve 12y ago
        It really depends on your requirements. What is it that you need? Like any software SP is a tool, just like home improvement you don't go out buy a tool and than try to use it for what ever task is in front of you (you might end up with a screw driver while you really needed a hammer). So I could make a list of Document Management, Content Management, Intranet, etc software but the correct answer depends on your needs since there are lots of choose and all (some) have there own strong and weak points. SP is a mesh up of several software suits slowly coming to getter, it is getting better every release. SP could also be the right choice depending in your needs. Mainly work group portals but those tend to fail (as in not being used) since most of the time there is no proper business case nor business processes in place to support the grand idea
      - nmrm 12y ago
        If you respond with specific requirements I'll be glad to give you a rundown of options for each requirement, as well as good "package deals" of software that works well in concert.
    - indlebe 12y ago
      Definitely true. A wiki provides a good chunk of what I've seen folks in academia use SP for but I've seen other companies use primarily the office-type features (calendar, contacts, etc). But if you setup a wiki along with something like Zimbra and that could provide most of what SP offers and some extras.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    I've only used Sharepoint very cursorily and that years ago, so my experience isn't the best or understanding complete. As a first approximation: a Wiki. Tools such as Atlassian's Trac and Jira (not themselves open sourced) offer a fair bit of the equivalent features. For setting up Internet portals, a CMS such as Drupal or Wordpress could fit the bill. One of the features of Sharepoint sites that I've seen is that they're used effectively to "hang" MS Office documents off of them -- as Office docs. This grates strongly with my preference for either HTML or PDF formats for documents, plus some markup style. I'm growing increasingly strongly partial to using either Markdown (for simple documents/pages) or LaTeX (for more complex ones) for document preparation. Yes, there's a touch of up-front training involved, but once you've crossed that bridge, the world opens up, and the basics can be gotten in an hour or so. The document management pieces are actually something I'd like a solution for more generally, and it's a space that's hugely frustrating. There's zotero, a desktop application, there's git, there are a number of other tools, each of which effectively only address part of the larger picture. There are a number of free document management tools, but I'm not in a position to recommend any: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=web+based+document+management https://duckduckgo.com/?q=web+based+document+management Best thing to do is to make a functional list of what it is you're using Sharepoint for, and to find equivalent replacements for those features.
  - anonbanker 12y ago
    I've been implementing Alfresco[1] as a viable SharePoint replacement. 1. Http://alfresco.com
brudgers 12y ago
As I mentioned common open source productivity software runs on Windows. That includes Gimp, Emacs etc. - not that I believe that Munich is rolling out 14000 development/graphics boxes. The comparison does not appear to be between equivalent specifications. It's assuming that Windows requires Office. That's simply false.
- mkesper 12y ago
  Don't understand your point. An office PC will need an office suite. And if you've got Microsoft in your door, guess what will it be?
  - brudgers 12y ago
    Office not being available for Linux does not imply that Office is required by Windows. The difference between platforms is the availability of Office and it's cheap and easy to use something other than Office on a Windows machine, don't buy Office and install the other thing instead. AutoCad isn't available for Linux either, but it no less sense rolling it into the price of a Windows license than Office.
- nmrm 12y ago
  For most people/IT departments, dependence on Office is the only reason they hand Microsoft a dime for Windows. If you're not using Office or other Windows-only productivity software, why pay the Windows licensing fee?
  - zanny 12y ago
    Retraining costs, mostly. The crowd on HN can sometimes forget that your average computer user, even one that uses it professionally - database entry, or just using some enterprise software daily - is literally hard coded trained to click on specific buttons in specific places on Windows, with nill comprehension of what they do, and if given any alternative layout would immediately stop and be unable to function. Why do you think Windows 8 has seen such enterprise backlash?

by zanny 12y ago

ams6110 12y ago

Not to mention the big kahunas, Exchange, Sharepoint, AD, SQL Server licenses.

Titanous 12y ago
And don't forget the humans that support everything.
- scholia 12y ago
  The humans being vastly more expensive than either the software or the hardware... which is why Munich is most likely in a deep financial hole over this project, due to the huge waste of staff time
velodrome 12y ago
Is there an opensource alternative for Sharepoint?
- nmrm 12y ago
  Some things claim to be, but not really. You can write down the list of sharepoint features you need, and then find individual OSS projects that fill the gap. It's not a one-stop thing, but it doesn't have to be a deal breaker either.
  - eru 12y ago
    And to be honest, you wouldn't want one-for-one replacement for sharepoint. Sharepoint is awful.
- stefanve 12y ago
  SharePoint is a Jack of all trades, master of none so based on you requirements you have to choose the right tool most of which are OSS or at the very least non depended on Windows
  - velodrome 12y ago
    Could you name few? Anything would be helpful.
    - stefanve 12y ago
      It really depends on your requirements. What is it that you need? Like any software SP is a tool, just like home improvement you don't go out buy a tool and than try to use it for what ever task is in front of you (you might end up with a screw driver while you really needed a hammer). So I could make a list of Document Management, Content Management, Intranet, etc software but the correct answer depends on your needs since there are lots of choose and all (some) have there own strong and weak points. SP is a mesh up of several software suits slowly coming to getter, it is getting better every release. SP could also be the right choice depending in your needs. Mainly work group portals but those tend to fail (as in not being used) since most of the time there is no proper business case nor business processes in place to support the grand idea
    - nmrm 12y ago
      If you respond with specific requirements I'll be glad to give you a rundown of options for each requirement, as well as good "package deals" of software that works well in concert.
  - indlebe 12y ago
    Definitely true. A wiki provides a good chunk of what I've seen folks in academia use SP for but I've seen other companies use primarily the office-type features (calendar, contacts, etc). But if you setup a wiki along with something like Zimbra and that could provide most of what SP offers and some extras.
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  I've only used Sharepoint very cursorily and that years ago, so my experience isn't the best or understanding complete. As a first approximation: a Wiki. Tools such as Atlassian's Trac and Jira (not themselves open sourced) offer a fair bit of the equivalent features. For setting up Internet portals, a CMS such as Drupal or Wordpress could fit the bill. One of the features of Sharepoint sites that I've seen is that they're used effectively to "hang" MS Office documents off of them -- as Office docs. This grates strongly with my preference for either HTML or PDF formats for documents, plus some markup style. I'm growing increasingly strongly partial to using either Markdown (for simple documents/pages) or LaTeX (for more complex ones) for document preparation. Yes, there's a touch of up-front training involved, but once you've crossed that bridge, the world opens up, and the basics can be gotten in an hour or so. The document management pieces are actually something I'd like a solution for more generally, and it's a space that's hugely frustrating. There's zotero, a desktop application, there's git, there are a number of other tools, each of which effectively only address part of the larger picture. There are a number of free document management tools, but I'm not in a position to recommend any: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=web+based+document+management https://duckduckgo.com/?q=web+based+document+management Best thing to do is to make a functional list of what it is you're using Sharepoint for, and to find equivalent replacements for those features.
- anonbanker 12y ago
  I've been implementing Alfresco[1] as a viable SharePoint replacement. 1. Http://alfresco.com

brudgers 12y ago

As I mentioned common open source productivity software runs on Windows. That includes Gimp, Emacs etc. - not that I believe that Munich is rolling out 14000 development/graphics boxes. The comparison does not appear to be between equivalent specifications. It's assuming that Windows requires Office. That's simply false.

mkesper 12y ago
Don't understand your point. An office PC will need an office suite. And if you've got Microsoft in your door, guess what will it be?
- brudgers 12y ago
  Office not being available for Linux does not imply that Office is required by Windows. The difference between platforms is the availability of Office and it's cheap and easy to use something other than Office on a Windows machine, don't buy Office and install the other thing instead. AutoCad isn't available for Linux either, but it no less sense rolling it into the price of a Windows license than Office.
nmrm 12y ago
For most people/IT departments, dependence on Office is the only reason they hand Microsoft a dime for Windows. If you're not using Office or other Windows-only productivity software, why pay the Windows licensing fee?
- zanny 12y ago
  Retraining costs, mostly. The crowd on HN can sometimes forget that your average computer user, even one that uses it professionally - database entry, or just using some enterprise software daily - is literally hard coded trained to click on specific buttons in specific places on Windows, with nill comprehension of what they do, and if given any alternative layout would immediately stop and be unable to function. Why do you think Windows 8 has seen such enterprise backlash?