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Personally, I want someone to tell me if I've said something offensive. If the offense was unintentional, I then can decide whether saying that thing was impor

Personally, I want someone to tell me if I've said something offensive. If the offense was unintentional, I then can decide whether saying that thing was important enough to me to warrant upsetting someone else. Maybe it was. Usually it's not. I suppose some people might prefer living in a bubble where they never have to think about how what they say impacts other people, but I was glad to go to Hacker School where that wasn't the case.

Zikes 12y ago
I would also want someone to tell me if I've said something offensive. It gives me an opportunity to re-evaluate my words, and reply accordingly. The reply might be "oops, sorry", or it might be "no, it wasn't." Thats the argument here. If further debate or discussion were necessary following that exchange, I would welcome it, but "oops, sorry" cannot and should not be the default because it assumes that whomever takes the defensive first is always in the right, and that is its own "bubble" worth worrying about.
- thumbtackthief 12y ago
  Again, the 'no debate' is more two-pronged: 1) No need to defend yourself, because no one is saying you're terrible, and 2) Keep the debate private, as opposed to long threads on the HS boards that just deteriorate into this. The one time I was accused of being subtly-sexist, I disagreed with the commenter and I told her so (privately). She stuck to her point, and by the end I didn't 100% agree with her and I thought she was being a little sensitive; _however_ I'll still be more careful in the future. Whether or not I agree that she should have been offended is irrelevant: I said something that offended her, she seems like a nice enough person, and making that tiny switch in my language was a small-enough sacrifice that I was happy to err on the side of caution.
  - Zikes 12y ago
    > 1) No need to defend yourself, because no one is saying you're terrible Accusations of sexism in technology need to be taken extremely seriously, as just the accusation alone can be all it takes for someone to be publicly vilified[1] or even fired[2]. In today's technology culture, the accusation of sexism can be even more damaging than the sexism itself. That's a key reason for all this debate taking place. HS is promoting this culture in a way that encourages other companies and communities to adopt it, and the potential for abuse and misuse is far too high. It's very easy to imagine a culture developing as a result where someone is accused of sexism where there is none, and they either accept it and offer up an empty apology or they deny it and are crucified. [1] http://www.joyent.com/blog/the-power-of-a-pronoun http://www.joyent.com/blog/the-power-of-a-pronoun [2] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes-got-two-people-fired-and-led-to-ddos-attacks/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes-...
    - thumbtackthief 12y ago
      So, in that first article, the point was not that the person used the sexist gendered pronoun, but _absolutely insisted_ on it. Here's my example, and if the person in question is reading this, he/she can feel free to chime in. I posted in our internal forums about how I was planning my wedding (to another man) which "was getting very expensive, even without a bride." Someone called me out on sexist language, saying that not all women needed elaborate weddings/dresses/whatnot, and so on and so forth. We debated (privately) for a while. In the end? Honestly? I appreciated her viewpoint a little more, but I still think she was being a little over-sensitive. HOWEVER, I went back and edited my post to remove the offending remark. It was a minor change for me to make (and she wasn't totally wrong), and if it made someone feel a little more comfortable and promoted harmony, great. It ended there. It also would have ended had I _not_ gone back and edited my post. But if I made a giant stink about it, involved other people, treated her poorly thereafter, and otherwise was a giant unpleasant jerk to work with, well then yeah--I'd expect some consequences. Does she hate me now? I don't think so. Am I a terrible misogynist? I hope not. But I got reminded that people with different viewpoints and backgrounds will think differently from me, and I should respect that, and that's a very good thing.
      - wmj 12y ago
        > HOWEVER, I went back and edited my post to remove the offending remark. This is exactly the kind of self-censorship through mobbing that we're trying to counteract. It's unconscionable and it's unacceptable.
thumbtackthief 12y ago
I don't think 'oops sorry' is demanded. You're allowed to disagree. That's there so people don't think that being corrected means that they're terrible racist sexist homophobes that don't belong in society, it just means that they made a human error and can apologize and move on. If you really don't feel you did anything wrong, that's fine. That being said, I don't know how many times people have told me (not at Hacker School) that it was fine that they said, "That's gay" about something because they 'didn't mean it that way.' Yeah, well, you don't get to tell me what offends me, especially if you're a person that's not a member of the group at hand. I tend to think women, for example, have a better idea of what a sexist remark is than I do and, if not, at least bring a perspective to the table that's different than mine and worth listening to.

Zikes 12y ago

I would also want someone to tell me if I've said something offensive. It gives me an opportunity to re-evaluate my words, and reply accordingly. The reply might be "oops, sorry", or it might be "no, it wasn't." Thats the argument here. If further debate or discussion were necessary following that exchange, I would welcome it, but "oops, sorry" cannot and should not be the default because it assumes that whomever takes the defensive first is always in the right, and that is its own "bubble" worth worrying about.

thumbtackthief 12y ago
Again, the 'no debate' is more two-pronged: 1) No need to defend yourself, because no one is saying you're terrible, and 2) Keep the debate private, as opposed to long threads on the HS boards that just deteriorate into this. The one time I was accused of being subtly-sexist, I disagreed with the commenter and I told her so (privately). She stuck to her point, and by the end I didn't 100% agree with her and I thought she was being a little sensitive; _however_ I'll still be more careful in the future. Whether or not I agree that she should have been offended is irrelevant: I said something that offended her, she seems like a nice enough person, and making that tiny switch in my language was a small-enough sacrifice that I was happy to err on the side of caution.
- Zikes 12y ago
  > 1) No need to defend yourself, because no one is saying you're terrible Accusations of sexism in technology need to be taken extremely seriously, as just the accusation alone can be all it takes for someone to be publicly vilified[1] or even fired[2]. In today's technology culture, the accusation of sexism can be even more damaging than the sexism itself. That's a key reason for all this debate taking place. HS is promoting this culture in a way that encourages other companies and communities to adopt it, and the potential for abuse and misuse is far too high. It's very easy to imagine a culture developing as a result where someone is accused of sexism where there is none, and they either accept it and offer up an empty apology or they deny it and are crucified. [1] http://www.joyent.com/blog/the-power-of-a-pronoun http://www.joyent.com/blog/the-power-of-a-pronoun [2] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes-got-two-people-fired-and-led-to-ddos-attacks/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes-...
  - thumbtackthief 12y ago
    So, in that first article, the point was not that the person used the sexist gendered pronoun, but _absolutely insisted_ on it. Here's my example, and if the person in question is reading this, he/she can feel free to chime in. I posted in our internal forums about how I was planning my wedding (to another man) which "was getting very expensive, even without a bride." Someone called me out on sexist language, saying that not all women needed elaborate weddings/dresses/whatnot, and so on and so forth. We debated (privately) for a while. In the end? Honestly? I appreciated her viewpoint a little more, but I still think she was being a little over-sensitive. HOWEVER, I went back and edited my post to remove the offending remark. It was a minor change for me to make (and she wasn't totally wrong), and if it made someone feel a little more comfortable and promoted harmony, great. It ended there. It also would have ended had I _not_ gone back and edited my post. But if I made a giant stink about it, involved other people, treated her poorly thereafter, and otherwise was a giant unpleasant jerk to work with, well then yeah--I'd expect some consequences. Does she hate me now? I don't think so. Am I a terrible misogynist? I hope not. But I got reminded that people with different viewpoints and backgrounds will think differently from me, and I should respect that, and that's a very good thing.
    - wmj 12y ago
      > HOWEVER, I went back and edited my post to remove the offending remark. This is exactly the kind of self-censorship through mobbing that we're trying to counteract. It's unconscionable and it's unacceptable.

thumbtackthief 12y ago

I don't think 'oops sorry' is demanded. You're allowed to disagree. That's there so people don't think that being corrected means that they're terrible racist sexist homophobes that don't belong in society, it just means that they made a human error and can apologize and move on. If you really don't feel you did anything wrong, that's fine. That being said, I don't know how many times people have told me (not at Hacker School) that it was fine that they said, "That's gay" about something because they 'didn't mean it that way.' Yeah, well, you don't get to tell me what offends me, especially if you're a person that's not a member of the group at hand. I tend to think women, for example, have a better idea of what a sexist remark is than I do and, if not, at least bring a perspective to the table that's different than mine and worth listening to.