4 ms·

As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic. No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that lev

As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic. No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that level. Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the justice system. On a political level, decouple German intelligence agencies stronger from the US ones, and drive out as much US intelligence as possible.

wwwwwwwwww 12y ago
yes - make an enemy out of the most powerful intelligence agency in the world in fact lets expel their embassy too!
- terranstyler 12y ago
  Well, given the alternative and some modest regard for basic human rights (such as, e.g., stated in the German constitution [1]), they are legally bound to do exactly that. [1] http://dejure.org/gesetze/GG/10.html http://dejure.org/gesetze/GG/10.html
  - onli 12y ago
    Especially since the reports of spying activities from within the american embassy in berlin. In fact, it would have been necessary at this point already to investigate the embassy itself, and to ban the current american embassador if anything were found. That this wasn't done was illegal.
- perlgeek 12y ago
  There is a huge spectrum between cooling foreign relations and making an enemy. Also, if making an enemy seems to be the only option to retain sovereignty and protect human rights, it's an option that must be considered, at least.
terranstyler 12y ago
The reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have. It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign" theory. [1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  Non-Souvereignty is largely regarded as a wild conspiracy theory. And really, what kind of evidence is there? Inevitably, signs of "foreign control" turns out to be some form of competition, cooperation, trade or just plain common interests. What counts more is that Germans are allowed to say anything they want, there is no evidence of tampering in elections, the press is free and extensive, and people can largely do as they please. Nothing is ever perfect, but claiming US sovereignty over Germay is just plain stupid.
  - terranstyler 12y ago
    Well, first let me state that I am not sure what to make of this Non-sovereignty. However, here are some of the arguments I find interesting: - A decent amount of videos about this topic can be found on youtube, most of the feature also Schäuble (Minister of Finance) saying that Germany neither is nor ever was souvereign. - Untampered elections are necessary but not sufficient for democracy. What if you elect someone and the newly elected just do as they please after the election? (see US or Germany) - free press: This is my personal opinion but I often find that very interesting things happen worldwide and the German press doesn't care or all major journals have the same opinion (example: EU is good, Russia is bad, Ukraine is Putin's fault)
  - igl 12y ago
    It is not plain stupid. It's actually a good opportunity to figure out what the Grundgesetzbuch is (yes, it is actually not a valid 'constitution') Even Scheuble said the sovereignty issues went into 'ad absurdum' since ww2. There is contract after contract after contract. Germany is in so much need of a rewrite of its law books. Everything is corrected by extensions and special rule. The amount of paperwork germans produce is INSANE and should easily push someone to think "Wait there is something f'ed here". - Say anything they want: Unless you mention the H with the J's... and cough Horst Köhler cough - No evidence of tampering in elections: mmmmmmh there are always issues in the east and there is always something coming up in small districts or states. They are not major but important nonetheless (Read: Local press) - The press is free and extensive: LOL!!!!!!!!! Axel Springer and Spiegel dictate the opinion here, everyone else is a jew-baby-eating holocost denier. - people can largely do as they please: yes, if they can afford a lawyer to help them with the paperwork. Not getting into this stuff and just accepting everything would be plain stupid.

wwwwwwwwww 12y ago

yes - make an enemy out of the most powerful intelligence agency in the world in fact lets expel their embassy too!

terranstyler 12y ago
Well, given the alternative and some modest regard for basic human rights (such as, e.g., stated in the German constitution [1]), they are legally bound to do exactly that. [1] http://dejure.org/gesetze/GG/10.html http://dejure.org/gesetze/GG/10.html
- onli 12y ago
  Especially since the reports of spying activities from within the american embassy in berlin. In fact, it would have been necessary at this point already to investigate the embassy itself, and to ban the current american embassador if anything were found. That this wasn't done was illegal.
perlgeek 12y ago
There is a huge spectrum between cooling foreign relations and making an enemy. Also, if making an enemy seems to be the only option to retain sovereignty and protect human rights, it's an option that must be considered, at least.

terranstyler 12y ago

The reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have. It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign" theory. [1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.

bayesianhorse 12y ago
Non-Souvereignty is largely regarded as a wild conspiracy theory. And really, what kind of evidence is there? Inevitably, signs of "foreign control" turns out to be some form of competition, cooperation, trade or just plain common interests. What counts more is that Germans are allowed to say anything they want, there is no evidence of tampering in elections, the press is free and extensive, and people can largely do as they please. Nothing is ever perfect, but claiming US sovereignty over Germay is just plain stupid.
- terranstyler 12y ago
  Well, first let me state that I am not sure what to make of this Non-sovereignty. However, here are some of the arguments I find interesting: - A decent amount of videos about this topic can be found on youtube, most of the feature also Schäuble (Minister of Finance) saying that Germany neither is nor ever was souvereign. - Untampered elections are necessary but not sufficient for democracy. What if you elect someone and the newly elected just do as they please after the election? (see US or Germany) - free press: This is my personal opinion but I often find that very interesting things happen worldwide and the German press doesn't care or all major journals have the same opinion (example: EU is good, Russia is bad, Ukraine is Putin's fault)
- igl 12y ago
  It is not plain stupid. It's actually a good opportunity to figure out what the Grundgesetzbuch is (yes, it is actually not a valid 'constitution') Even Scheuble said the sovereignty issues went into 'ad absurdum' since ww2. There is contract after contract after contract. Germany is in so much need of a rewrite of its law books. Everything is corrected by extensions and special rule. The amount of paperwork germans produce is INSANE and should easily push someone to think "Wait there is something f'ed here". - Say anything they want: Unless you mention the H with the J's... and cough Horst Köhler cough - No evidence of tampering in elections: mmmmmmh there are always issues in the east and there is always something coming up in small districts or states. They are not major but important nonetheless (Read: Local press) - The press is free and extensive: LOL!!!!!!!!! Axel Springer and Spiegel dictate the opinion here, everyone else is a jew-baby-eating holocost denier. - people can largely do as they please: yes, if they can afford a lawyer to help them with the paperwork. Not getting into this stuff and just accepting everything would be plain stupid.