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Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case
- susi22 12y agoMerkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world. Who's supposed to protect us from Putin? The NATO? The biggest fear for Merkel is twofold: - Industry espionage. This would attack Germany at what they're best at and be huge problem. USA has been lucky to not be caught about that (in Germany). - The much bigger problem for Merkel is however the growing Anti-Americanism in Germany. There has always been a good amount of it. But mostly, Germans see the US as a partner. There is in huge decline and it's a growing problem. Germans are much more serious about their privacy than Americans and the spying scandal didn't help America. Merkel also knows that she has to listen much more to the German public than for instance Obama has to listen to Americans. Germany has a very well functioning Democracy and any pressure from the public will quickly result in resignations or losing the next election. Germany has done this before: Kohl's affair got his party out. The FDP got thrown out of the parliament last year. You can quickly go from 40% to under 20% in Germany. Due to the many US scandals in the last 2 years, Germans see America very very skeptic these days. Der Spiegel yesterday's issue has some numbers: Who should Germany work together with? USA: 56%. Russia: 53%. If you read many of the forums in Germany you'll see the growing dissatisfaction with the US as a partner. And more and more understanding for Putin these days. My point of this post is: What this means it that if USA continues to bully the German people, then Merkel will be forced to take action and do something that she doesn't actually want to. She knows very well that America is extremely important and without a good relationship things will get much tougher in Europe/Germany. After all Germany is benefiting from the huge security the US provides to us. But Germans don't think that far ahead and only see the bully in America these days. I hope it doesn't get this far that Merkel is forced (by the German people/media) into getting distance from America since it would hurt both, Germany and the US. I'm very certain that Obama know that Merkel will always be his friend. But I'm not so sure if he realizes that the German people can make Merkel do something that she otherwise wouldn't do. America: Watch out how far you take the bullying. It might just happen that the next generation of Westerners will end up hating you in 10-20 years down the road. And then, you will have no friends left but only enemies. What Obama and America's government does can be very dangerous for America in the future.
- fit2rule 12y ago>After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. The US is not just Germanys' biggest partner - it controls Germanys' sovereignty. The German intelligence services are all run from Washington. When Merkel says 'it does not matter', its because its really not relevant that America is spying on Germany: its allowed to. Germany lost WW2, and has not had a restoration of the sovereignty of its intelligence services in its constitution. That part is still held by the occupying power.
- eru 12y agoDidn't the 4+2 treaties restore full sovereignty?
- tobiasu 12y agoOn paper. But the 2+4 treaty is mostly Soviets leave, NATO stays and expands.
- arrrg 12y agoSo what you are actually saying is, yes, Germany has full sovereignty. Please don’t spread this bullshit. There is (mostly) mutually beneficial strong cooperation with a power-differential. That’s all. Stop spinning your dumb conspiracy theories.
- tobiasu 12y agoHow about you stop raging about things I didn't say?
- fit2rule 12y agoGermany does not have full sovereignty and won't, ever, until a Peace Treaty is signed and ratified. America won't allow that to happen because then it'd have to pull out all of its troops - and in case you didn't know, Germany is full of American troops and other military-industrial resources. Germany is, at most, a puppet state - a model for what America had hoped to pull off in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and so on ..
- dan_bk 12y agoOr it's just another political statement to gain/retain voter support, while everything (US-german collaboration regarding mass surveillance) will go on as before. Seriously, if Germany wants to make a statement, it can start by banning all NSA listening stations on German soil.
- MrBuddyCasino 12y agoBut then where would we get most of our sigint from, if not from the NSA? Its not like we have those capabilities ourselves. But I agree that Germany is starting to look a little.... foolish, but there is no easy way out for us. We need the USA more than they need us.
- Svip 12y agoApparently, most of the data NSA collects is useless. And even with that data, other intelligence agencies (read: other countries') are often better informed than the Americans. Having the most amount of data is not the same has having the best intelligence agency. How can data be useful if you don't know what it's for? German intelligence is likely more sophisticated than American intelligence.[0] Of course, as with most European intelligence agencies, they do have several centuries of advantage. It took CIA quite a while to figure out not see world politics in a pure East vs West picture. You cannot build that amount of experience overnight. Do you think the KGB outmanoeuvred the CIA at every turn because of a bigger budget or lack of restrictions? Nay, KGB relied heavily on 600 years of espionage experience. Experience that used to mean the life or death of several European states. Europe may have granted their former colonies independence, but the experience gathered in our years as masters have not been for naught. It is not without reason France knows central Africa like its backhand. USA may have more data, because they have the technical knowhow and capability. But they still lack the experience. The relationships between European and American intelligence agencies are certainly mutually beneficial. CIA's best kept secret is how little they know. [0] Of course, there will often be the occasional embarrassing story that would dispute this claim. But don't let these few stories fool you.
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- sidcool 12y agoThe conspiracy theorist in me tells me that this might be a staged drama by US-German authorities to instill confidence in German citizens. Or may be to deceive Russia.
- iSnow 12y agoI doubt this is going to instill confidence. On the contrary, if this goes on, it could damage the German government and boost fringe parties.
- sidcool 12y agoI mean in a way that the German citizens might think that their country is standing up against the mighty US.
- qgi 12y ago"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
- perlgeek 12y agoAs a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic. No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that level. Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the justice system. On a political level, decouple German intelligence agencies stronger from the US ones, and drive out as much US intelligence as possible.
- wwwwwwwwww 12y agoyes - make an enemy out of the most powerful intelligence agency in the world in fact lets expel their embassy too!
- terranstyler 12y agoWell, given the alternative and some modest regard for basic human rights (such as, e.g., stated in the German constitution [1]), they are legally bound to do exactly that. [1] http://dejure.org/gesetze/GG/10.html http://dejure.org/gesetze/GG/10.html
- onli 12y agoEspecially since the reports of spying activities from within the american embassy in berlin. In fact, it would have been necessary at this point already to investigate the embassy itself, and to ban the current american embassador if anything were found. That this wasn't done was illegal.
- perlgeek 12y agoThere is a huge spectrum between cooling foreign relations and making an enemy. Also, if making an enemy seems to be the only option to retain sovereignty and protect human rights, it's an option that must be considered, at least.
- terranstyler 12y agoThe reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have. It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign" theory. [1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.
- r0h1n 12y agoI'd say Germany is merely posturing with the US in order to win a seat on the "Five Eyes" spying alliance. Angela Merkel eyes place for Germany in US intelligence club - http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/e2492a3a-3d7a-11e3-9928-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=intl http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/e2492a3a-3d7a-11e3-9928-00144... US lawmakers push for German entrance to Five Eyes spy alliance - http://www.dw.de/us-lawmakers-push-for-german-entrance-to-five-eyes-spy-alliance/a-17246049 http://www.dw.de/us-lawmakers-push-for-german-entrance-to-fi...
- higherpurpose 12y agoI'd say Merkel is definitely on US's side, probably even in this case. Hopefully, the German people and government as a whole, aren't.
- ThePhysicist 12y agoWell, it was well known in government circles (and beyond) that the US are spying on everyone including their allies, so the fact that they paid a mole in the German secret service shouldn't have been too surprising to the German government. The fact that he got uncovered and that the whole affair got public is a serious problem for Angela Merkel though: The German public already perceived her as way too soft towards the US during the latest NSA affair, so if she doesn't act this time she will lose a lot of goodwill in the German population. Judging from her recent media appearances, it seems actually likely that she will act in one way or another. A probable "retaliation" could be to cancel the free trade treaty that's currently being negotiated between the US and the EU (and which, like most EU projects, depends heavily on Germany's consent), which would be a huge economic loss for the US (and to th EU as well of course). So, although this move was "business as usual" for the US, it could have pretty serious consequences for them. Makes me really wonder if the return-on-investment of the current US surveillance strategy is actually positive, or if it will result in a huge loss of economic power and trust for them.
- mschuster91 12y ago> which would be a huge economic loss for the US LOL, I hope you're not being serious. The only ones TTIP and friends are going to benefit is Big Capital and American producers of chlorine-treated chicken. No thanks, it's enough you fuck up your own country, no need to fuck up Europe too.
- ThePhysicist 12y agoWell, according to the E.U. the treaty could generate 100 BN € in revenue and more than 1 million jobs both in US and EU, so even if those numbers should be off by a factor of two it's still pretty big... http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/ http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/
- 1337biz 12y agoI am not sure what to trust less - economic predictions of future revenues or studies commissioned by the EU.
- rollo 12y agoAs a German I don't see this as an issue. Some German politicians have deep connections to enemy states, so why wouldn't the NSA spy on them? It's in our best interest even, because those politicans are a danger to Europe and Germany itself. You can also see the problem with Germany and France not behaving as allies of the USA in the war against Russia.
- tobiasu 12y agoI'm intrigued, tell us more about the war against Russia. Which German politicians have deep connections with enemy states, and what are those states?
- rollo 12y agoRussia has infiltrated our political class on multiple fronts. The most visible of course has been former chancellor Gerhard Schröder, who works for Gazprom. But there are quite a few people involved in that, both in the SPD but also in the CDU. Nevermind the corporations involved, like Wintershall and E.ON. Other vectors of attack have been The Left, through their old SED roots and connection with the KGB. now FSB. And of course the new right-populist AfD party, who are pushing Russia's agenda in Europe.
- bildung 12y agoAs a German I don't see this as an issue. Some German politicians have deep connections to enemy states, so why wouldn't the NSA spy on them? It's in our best interest even, because those politicans are a danger to Europe and Germany itself. As a German I very much see that as an issue. If there indeed are polititions having "deep connections to enemy states" (who do you mean?), I want the democratic process to handle that, not the intelligance agency of another state. What do we need a parliament for, anyway, if you think a practically unregulated third party is the right way to handle domestic discourse?
- rollo 12y agoWe need it because Germany has shown it is unable to do the right thing or even act in its own interest without external help.
- bayesianhorse 12y agoThe incompetency involved in this case almost rules out CIA involvement. Let's reserve judgement until more details are known.
- tiatia 12y agoMerkel may possibly know a lot about spying. Who would have thought? Did Merkel work for the Stasi? http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-317907 http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-317907 The past of the current German president may not look much better (IM Larve) Anyway, should anything of this be true, the top German leader may be tremendously vulnerable for blackmailing.