4 ms·

Companies have been purposely making people feel bad about themselves for a very long time. Ads intentionally make people feel ugly, lazy, stupid, fat, dirty,

by panarky 12y ago

Companies have been purposely making people feel bad about themselves for a very long time. Ads intentionally make people feel ugly, lazy, stupid, fat, dirty, smelly, dandruffy, lonely and ashamed so they'll buy whatever product is on offer. Commerce is all about manipulating people for profit. I'm not a Facebook fan, but tell me how this is worse than standard operating procedure with every other consumer product?

eridius 12y ago
Because those aren't psychological experiments. Nobody's claiming it's ethical for an ad company to make you feel bad about yourself, but that's not really the point here. The point is that there are strict ethics rules for running experiments, and one of those rules is, except for a limited exception (that does not apply), the subjects need to be knowingly taking part in the experiment.
- panarky 12y ago
  Advertisements for consumer products are effective precisely because they cause psychological and behavioral changes in consumers. Companies rigorously test and refine ads to manipulate emotions and behavior on a scale two or three orders of magnitude greater than Facebook's experiment. Is Facebook's experiment different because they published the results in an academic journal?
  - hyperpape 12y ago
    I tend to think this experiment is a good example of where informed consent is a limited model. Nonetheless, academic researchers are committed to not do this kind of thing, and breaking your commitments isn't awesome.
- tedsanders 12y ago
  I don't think that's generally true though. Ad companies run experiments on us all the time. When they A/B test across different groups of consumers to see the effectiveness of an ad, they are running a psychological experiment on us without our consent (asking, "how will exposure to this ad affect a person's likelihood of buying our product?"). I think the rules that you're referring to are for federally funded research only. But there's a large body of commercial research that is constantly experimenting on us without our consent.
- jessriedel 12y ago
  You're not explaining the inconsistency, you're just giving it a name. If someone says "why are the sentences for crack cocaine 5 times longer than for regular cocaine?", it's silly to answer "because these are the rules we have, and they were passed by official people".
  - click170 12y ago
    I would postulate it's because people feel uncomfortable in situations where they are made to feel like lab rats, and that as a society we decided that these rules should be in place so that people who do not have the same views do not abuse those of us who do.
    - Sami_Lehtinen 12y ago
      Such experiments are run all the time on large populations. So that's nothing new. It's interesting to see what views there will be about this time after decades. X-ray show fitting matchines? Radiation pills to cure everything? Will aspartamine be allowed in food products after 50 years? Will it be allowed only because it was allowed earlier, even if it's known (then) to be dangerous? What about mobile phones and radiation? Is it ok to have 2w microwave trasmitter attached to your head all day long? Etc. Why is alcohol and nicotine still allowed to be sold, even if known to be toxic and damaging to health. What about acetylsalicylic acid as analgesic, and list goes on. Margarines were really popular at one time, and adverticed as healtyh option to butter.
  - eridius 12y ago
    That's really quite a terrible and completely irrelevant analogy. It's not that the rules are different, it's that we have rules, period, for experiments. There are no ethical rules for advertising. There are rules about lying, but that's basically it. But experiments? Yeah, we have ethical rules for those, and Facebook seems to have deliberately ignored them.
    - aianus 12y ago
      What about ad companies running different ads in different markets and analyzing the resulting sales data? Isn't that an experiment?
- SilasX 12y ago
  I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to say "X is wrong, unless you're doing it for a psychological experiment". You should be at least as much worried about "manipulating human behavior for profit" as you are about "manipulating human behavior in order to publish the most effective ways of doing so"; otherwise, you're just letting yourself get tripped up by the labels.
baddox 12y ago
There's also a major definitional problem with the concept of "manipulating people for profit." Using the most broad definition of "manipulation," most people are okay with some forms of manipulation, and upset with others, although to me the distinction is not very clear. A sign on a freeway incidating that a certain restaurant is 1 mile ahead probably wouldn't upset many people, but an advertisement for a mobile game might. Both are blatant attempts to manipulate people.
mkal_tsr 12y ago
> I'm not a Facebook fan, but tell me how this is worse than standard operating procedure with every other consumer product? When I see an ad, I know that the company wants me to give them my money. When I see my friend post something on Facebook, they want to communicate or connect in some way ... note that it is not a monetary desire to buy something from a friend, but to connect with them on a human and emotional level. Manipulating the news feed so that there is an appearance of more or less contentment among my friends when that is not what they intended for others to see is manipulative. I've always had "most recent" instead of "top stories" so this wouldn't have affected me, but to imply that it's just like an ad is utter horseshit.
- panarky 12y ago
  > When I see an ad, I know that the company wants me to give them my money. Similarly, you should know that everything you see on Facebook is designed to profit from your attention. The choices they make about what ads to show and what to put in your newsfeed are not altruistic. These decisions are about what's best for Facebook, not what's best for you. If it profits Procter & Gamble or Unilever[0] to show ads that make you feel inferior or anxious, that's what they'll do. And if Facebook can make you feel lonely or sad so you'll spend more time on Facebook and see more ads, that's what they'll do too. > to imply that it's just like an ad is utter horseshit I'm not seeing a big distinction. [0] http://www.vocativ.com/world/india/indias-5-worst-ads-skin-whitening-cream/ http://www.vocativ.com/world/india/indias-5-worst-ads-skin-w...
  - mkal_tsr 12y ago
    So then why not do a test to see if injecting grammatical and spelling errors into a friend's post changes one's smug sense of superiority over them? I mean, sure it might be manipulative but hey, that's what ads are, right?

by panarky 12y ago

eridius 12y ago

Because those aren't psychological experiments. Nobody's claiming it's ethical for an ad company to make you feel bad about yourself, but that's not really the point here. The point is that there are strict ethics rules for running experiments, and one of those rules is, except for a limited exception (that does not apply), the subjects need to be knowingly taking part in the experiment.

panarky 12y ago
Advertisements for consumer products are effective precisely because they cause psychological and behavioral changes in consumers. Companies rigorously test and refine ads to manipulate emotions and behavior on a scale two or three orders of magnitude greater than Facebook's experiment. Is Facebook's experiment different because they published the results in an academic journal?
- hyperpape 12y ago
  I tend to think this experiment is a good example of where informed consent is a limited model. Nonetheless, academic researchers are committed to not do this kind of thing, and breaking your commitments isn't awesome.
tedsanders 12y ago
I don't think that's generally true though. Ad companies run experiments on us all the time. When they A/B test across different groups of consumers to see the effectiveness of an ad, they are running a psychological experiment on us without our consent (asking, "how will exposure to this ad affect a person's likelihood of buying our product?"). I think the rules that you're referring to are for federally funded research only. But there's a large body of commercial research that is constantly experimenting on us without our consent.
jessriedel 12y ago
You're not explaining the inconsistency, you're just giving it a name. If someone says "why are the sentences for crack cocaine 5 times longer than for regular cocaine?", it's silly to answer "because these are the rules we have, and they were passed by official people".
- click170 12y ago
  I would postulate it's because people feel uncomfortable in situations where they are made to feel like lab rats, and that as a society we decided that these rules should be in place so that people who do not have the same views do not abuse those of us who do.
  - Sami_Lehtinen 12y ago
    Such experiments are run all the time on large populations. So that's nothing new. It's interesting to see what views there will be about this time after decades. X-ray show fitting matchines? Radiation pills to cure everything? Will aspartamine be allowed in food products after 50 years? Will it be allowed only because it was allowed earlier, even if it's known (then) to be dangerous? What about mobile phones and radiation? Is it ok to have 2w microwave trasmitter attached to your head all day long? Etc. Why is alcohol and nicotine still allowed to be sold, even if known to be toxic and damaging to health. What about acetylsalicylic acid as analgesic, and list goes on. Margarines were really popular at one time, and adverticed as healtyh option to butter.
- eridius 12y ago
  That's really quite a terrible and completely irrelevant analogy. It's not that the rules are different, it's that we have rules, period, for experiments. There are no ethical rules for advertising. There are rules about lying, but that's basically it. But experiments? Yeah, we have ethical rules for those, and Facebook seems to have deliberately ignored them.
  - aianus 12y ago
    What about ad companies running different ads in different markets and analyzing the resulting sales data? Isn't that an experiment?
SilasX 12y ago
I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to say "X is wrong, unless you're doing it for a psychological experiment". You should be at least as much worried about "manipulating human behavior for profit" as you are about "manipulating human behavior in order to publish the most effective ways of doing so"; otherwise, you're just letting yourself get tripped up by the labels.

baddox 12y ago

There's also a major definitional problem with the concept of "manipulating people for profit." Using the most broad definition of "manipulation," most people are okay with some forms of manipulation, and upset with others, although to me the distinction is not very clear. A sign on a freeway incidating that a certain restaurant is 1 mile ahead probably wouldn't upset many people, but an advertisement for a mobile game might. Both are blatant attempts to manipulate people.

mkal_tsr 12y ago

> I'm not a Facebook fan, but tell me how this is worse than standard operating procedure with every other consumer product? When I see an ad, I know that the company wants me to give them my money. When I see my friend post something on Facebook, they want to communicate or connect in some way ... note that it is not a monetary desire to buy something from a friend, but to connect with them on a human and emotional level. Manipulating the news feed so that there is an appearance of more or less contentment among my friends when that is not what they intended for others to see is manipulative. I've always had "most recent" instead of "top stories" so this wouldn't have affected me, but to imply that it's just like an ad is utter horseshit.

panarky 12y ago
> When I see an ad, I know that the company wants me to give them my money. Similarly, you should know that everything you see on Facebook is designed to profit from your attention. The choices they make about what ads to show and what to put in your newsfeed are not altruistic. These decisions are about what's best for Facebook, not what's best for you. If it profits Procter & Gamble or Unilever[0] to show ads that make you feel inferior or anxious, that's what they'll do. And if Facebook can make you feel lonely or sad so you'll spend more time on Facebook and see more ads, that's what they'll do too. > to imply that it's just like an ad is utter horseshit I'm not seeing a big distinction. [0] http://www.vocativ.com/world/india/indias-5-worst-ads-skin-whitening-cream/ http://www.vocativ.com/world/india/indias-5-worst-ads-skin-w...
- mkal_tsr 12y ago
  So then why not do a test to see if injecting grammatical and spelling errors into a friend's post changes one's smug sense of superiority over them? I mean, sure it might be manipulative but hey, that's what ads are, right?