5 ms·

"all you can do without burning out." If I may, this sounds to me like if you assumed that everyone should be working just one step below burn out limit. And t

by gbog 12y ago

"all you can do without burning out." If I may, this sounds to me like if you assumed that everyone should be working just one step below burn out limit. And this seems to be shared by so many people. I wonder what is the rationale behind it? Is it a way to maximise income? or to make sure the 1billionth chance to be a new Bill Gates or Steve Jobs is not lost? For me, as a French, it seems obvious that we should be very far from the burn out limit most of the time, we should be close to the balance between happiness and boredom, while keeping a sufficient income.

dennisgorelik 12y ago
If you don't push yourself, then you don't grow fast enough. Burnout is also bad, so the ideal is to stay exactly one step below burnout.
- alistairSH 12y ago
  And there is research to back this up? One step below burn-out sounds miserable to me.
  - DrewAllyn 12y ago
    If its miserable, than it is burnout.
  - rtpg 12y ago
    I think if you're miserable, then you're actually at your burn-out. The notion of one-step below burn-out is that you're still getting enough stuff done (with the assumption that you _like_ your work, I guess).
- gbog 12y ago
  > you don't grow fast enough. But what if I do not want to "grow fast enough"? Or, more precisely, what if I question the direction of this growth? For instance, I certainly should learn more and more, discover more interesting topics, become a better father, cultivate friendships, etc. This is what I would agree to grow, and it means spending more time with kids or friends, or reading books about whatever subject I am interested in at the moment (which happens to be anthropology and history). This is a "growth" that do not require one dangerous "one step below burn out" mantra. Moreover, I do not believe that the very few very successful people are more happy than other. I can give two examples: I do not think Steve Jobs was happier than a "normal guy". A closer and easier example is Mojang, creator of Minecraft, which I certainly respect and admire (much more than Jobs): is he happyer now that he got the jackpot? He worked hard, was very lucky, but not that he "arrived there", maybe, just maybe, he has a lot of negative pressure from his success, maybe he has a fear to fail and would rather go back to the happy times when he was coding alone a very raw sim game for <1000 fans. So, once the soup is assured for long enough, and despite all the essays by PG, why not just say "it is not for me"?
- tripzilch 12y ago
  I agree you need to push yourself to grow. I don't know what "fast enough" is supposed to be measured by, I guess that depends on your personal goals. But you clearly have never experienced burnout. "One step below" is dangerously close to the precipice. If you cross the threshold (real life is too unpredictable for tight-rope walking), burnout is not a simple matter of taking that one step back. Recovery takes disproportionately more time than that. And you may not notice you've gone too far before you're already well in. You may cause long-lasting damage. You may wreck your career. You will learn an important lesson or two about what is "fast enough" for what is important in life :) Analogy: Keeping your flammable documents exactly one degree below combustion temperature. While playing with fire.
Taek 12y ago
For me, being right below the burn limit is where the most fun is, the most growth is, and where I'm most likely to hit a state of 'flow'. Some of the best weeks of my life have been 16 hour days of coding, taking breaks only for food and recovery walks. (all driven internally). There's an incredible joy that comes out of pushing yourself exactly as hard as you can tolerate and achieving your exact maximum productivity. And there's a lot of joy that comes from looking at the things you build as a result. I also did this last summer with hiking. In the space of about two months, I worked my way up from 3-5 mile hikes to day long, 40 mile hikes in 95 degree weather. I enjoyed it immensely. So perhaps there's no law that "you should work exactly enough that you don't burn out", but there's a lot of value in being able to be in that spot.

by gbog 12y ago

dennisgorelik 12y ago

If you don't push yourself, then you don't grow fast enough. Burnout is also bad, so the ideal is to stay exactly one step below burnout.

alistairSH 12y ago
And there is research to back this up? One step below burn-out sounds miserable to me.
- DrewAllyn 12y ago
  If its miserable, than it is burnout.
- rtpg 12y ago
  I think if you're miserable, then you're actually at your burn-out. The notion of one-step below burn-out is that you're still getting enough stuff done (with the assumption that you _like_ your work, I guess).
gbog 12y ago
> you don't grow fast enough. But what if I do not want to "grow fast enough"? Or, more precisely, what if I question the direction of this growth? For instance, I certainly should learn more and more, discover more interesting topics, become a better father, cultivate friendships, etc. This is what I would agree to grow, and it means spending more time with kids or friends, or reading books about whatever subject I am interested in at the moment (which happens to be anthropology and history). This is a "growth" that do not require one dangerous "one step below burn out" mantra. Moreover, I do not believe that the very few very successful people are more happy than other. I can give two examples: I do not think Steve Jobs was happier than a "normal guy". A closer and easier example is Mojang, creator of Minecraft, which I certainly respect and admire (much more than Jobs): is he happyer now that he got the jackpot? He worked hard, was very lucky, but not that he "arrived there", maybe, just maybe, he has a lot of negative pressure from his success, maybe he has a fear to fail and would rather go back to the happy times when he was coding alone a very raw sim game for <1000 fans. So, once the soup is assured for long enough, and despite all the essays by PG, why not just say "it is not for me"?
tripzilch 12y ago
I agree you need to push yourself to grow. I don't know what "fast enough" is supposed to be measured by, I guess that depends on your personal goals. But you clearly have never experienced burnout. "One step below" is dangerously close to the precipice. If you cross the threshold (real life is too unpredictable for tight-rope walking), burnout is not a simple matter of taking that one step back. Recovery takes disproportionately more time than that. And you may not notice you've gone too far before you're already well in. You may cause long-lasting damage. You may wreck your career. You will learn an important lesson or two about what is "fast enough" for what is important in life :) Analogy: Keeping your flammable documents exactly one degree below combustion temperature. While playing with fire.

Taek 12y ago

For me, being right below the burn limit is where the most fun is, the most growth is, and where I'm most likely to hit a state of 'flow'. Some of the best weeks of my life have been 16 hour days of coding, taking breaks only for food and recovery walks. (all driven internally). There's an incredible joy that comes out of pushing yourself exactly as hard as you can tolerate and achieving your exact maximum productivity. And there's a lot of joy that comes from looking at the things you build as a result. I also did this last summer with hiking. In the space of about two months, I worked my way up from 3-5 mile hikes to day long, 40 mile hikes in 95 degree weather. I enjoyed it immensely. So perhaps there's no law that "you should work exactly enough that you don't burn out", but there's a lot of value in being able to be in that spot.