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It seems like that as time has gone on, the intelligence apparatus in the US and closely allied countries has come to depend more and more on holding any and al

It seems like that as time has gone on, the intelligence apparatus in the US and closely allied countries has come to depend more and more on holding any and all information on anything. It's their leverage and it's their ability to control and influence events. Even small concessions are probably felt to be too much, and I imagine to many in the CIA and elsewhere, a cold war domino effect mentality still permeates. It's ridiculous, and it undermines a free flow of knowledge that our society desperately needs to function effectively. However, it only seems to be increasing in scope, and I believe the people related are more concerned about their positions and power rather than the long term viability of our country. Addenum: Perhaps worse, is that behaviors like this from the CIA, FBI, and NSA give ample diplomatic ammunition to every totalitarian and oppressive state on the planet and it legitimizes their actions. Even more so, they can argue that they were at least transparent about it rather than lying to the public. It's sad to think that a place that used to stand for freedom from oppression can more and more be used as a justification for it.

esbranson 12y ago
When was the last time you filed a FOIA request with the FSB or KGB? Or the BND or Säpo? Every totalitarian and oppressive state on the planet will find a reason to legitimize their actions regardless of whether or not America passes acts like the 1966 FOIA.
- x1798DE 12y ago
  Should we also let all the murderers and rapists out of jail because they didn't commit genocide? The fact that the US intelligence apparatus is one of the taller pygmies around doesn't make it a giant.
  - esbranson 12y ago
    If its genocide you are worried about, best pay more attention to those committing genocide rather than murderers and rapists. If its freedom of information you care about, best pay more attention to the FSBs, KGBs, BNDs and Säpos of the world than the CIAs, NSAs and FBIs. But I guess you can't hate what you can't see. And I say that with the understanding that FOIA + CIA is probably as uniquely American as it gets.
    - x1798DE 12y ago
      It's a good point, but my point was that it's not an either/or thing. There's plenty of outrage to go around, and the fact of the matter is that the NSA has enjoyed a very privileged position on the internet that the FSB simply doesn't have, so even if they're relatively transparent and respect the rule of law more than the FSB, we never trusted the FSB with anything sensitive in the first place, so they had no opportunity to commit the crimes that the NSA has perpetrated. Not to mention, the NSA are the ones that the Americans are actually paying for and who we have some (albeit low) chance of stopping. There's no point letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
      - esbranson 12y ago
        It is an either/or thing. Either you have a robust American FOIA-like system... Or you don't. (If you're outside America: You don't.) You want us to hate them all, I argue it is practically impossible to hate anyone else besides the NSA/CIA/FBI without an equivalent to the FOIA. Its epitomized by the American phrases "what you don't know can't hurt you", "what the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve over" and "ignorance is bliss". I think where people get it wrong is when non-Americans think America is the problem--and that is because they lack a FOIA. > we never trusted the FSB with anything sensitive in the first place, so they had no opportunity to commit the crimes that the NSA has perpetrated. Don't mistake absence of evidence as evidence of absence. And I say that knowing full well that without a FOIA, such a mistake is impossible to avoid. The fact is you have no clue about any agencies besides the NSA/CIA/FBI. Be careful how reliant your hatred is upon knowledge when your knowledge is deficient. > the NSA are the ones that the Americans are actually paying for and who we have some (albeit low) chance of stopping The NSA/CIA/FBI are the ones that anyone has any chance of stopping. Because its the only one where FOIA information can overcome your ignorance that "they had no opportunity" or some such nonsense. But the first step is to enact FOIAs, not stopping the NSA/CIA/FBI.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        sandGorgon 12y ago
- ossreality 12y ago
  false dichotomy much?

esbranson 12y ago

When was the last time you filed a FOIA request with the FSB or KGB? Or the BND or Säpo? Every totalitarian and oppressive state on the planet will find a reason to legitimize their actions regardless of whether or not America passes acts like the 1966 FOIA.

x1798DE 12y ago
Should we also let all the murderers and rapists out of jail because they didn't commit genocide? The fact that the US intelligence apparatus is one of the taller pygmies around doesn't make it a giant.
- esbranson 12y ago
  If its genocide you are worried about, best pay more attention to those committing genocide rather than murderers and rapists. If its freedom of information you care about, best pay more attention to the FSBs, KGBs, BNDs and Säpos of the world than the CIAs, NSAs and FBIs. But I guess you can't hate what you can't see. And I say that with the understanding that FOIA + CIA is probably as uniquely American as it gets.
  - x1798DE 12y ago
    It's a good point, but my point was that it's not an either/or thing. There's plenty of outrage to go around, and the fact of the matter is that the NSA has enjoyed a very privileged position on the internet that the FSB simply doesn't have, so even if they're relatively transparent and respect the rule of law more than the FSB, we never trusted the FSB with anything sensitive in the first place, so they had no opportunity to commit the crimes that the NSA has perpetrated. Not to mention, the NSA are the ones that the Americans are actually paying for and who we have some (albeit low) chance of stopping. There's no point letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
    - esbranson 12y ago
      It is an either/or thing. Either you have a robust American FOIA-like system... Or you don't. (If you're outside America: You don't.) You want us to hate them all, I argue it is practically impossible to hate anyone else besides the NSA/CIA/FBI without an equivalent to the FOIA. Its epitomized by the American phrases "what you don't know can't hurt you", "what the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve over" and "ignorance is bliss". I think where people get it wrong is when non-Americans think America is the problem--and that is because they lack a FOIA. > we never trusted the FSB with anything sensitive in the first place, so they had no opportunity to commit the crimes that the NSA has perpetrated. Don't mistake absence of evidence as evidence of absence. And I say that knowing full well that without a FOIA, such a mistake is impossible to avoid. The fact is you have no clue about any agencies besides the NSA/CIA/FBI. Be careful how reliant your hatred is upon knowledge when your knowledge is deficient. > the NSA are the ones that the Americans are actually paying for and who we have some (albeit low) chance of stopping The NSA/CIA/FBI are the ones that anyone has any chance of stopping. Because its the only one where FOIA information can overcome your ignorance that "they had no opportunity" or some such nonsense. But the first step is to enact FOIAs, not stopping the NSA/CIA/FBI.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - sandGorgon 12y ago
ossreality 12y ago
false dichotomy much?