5 ms·

"Old Soviet radars operate on longer wavelengths and interestingly enough are sometimes more effective at detecting stealth aircraft." The fuselage of the F-11

by TriinT 17y ago

"Old Soviet radars operate on longer wavelengths and interestingly enough are sometimes more effective at detecting stealth aircraft." The fuselage of the F-117 is covered with a top-secret radiation-absorbing paint. This paint is designed to operate over a certain range of frequencies, i.e., it's supposed to provide impedance matching over a certain frequency band (a bit like a thin-film in optics). Hence, if the enemy uses radars operating at frequencies for which the F-117 is not stealth, then there's a big problem. Using an old German radar from WW2 the F-117's radar signature is as big as the one of a non-stealth aircraft like the F/A-18. BTW, Zoltan (who is a Serb of Hungarian ethnicity, as the name suggests) is now a baker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani

gaius 17y ago
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-10-26-serb-stealth_x.htm http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-10-26-serb-stealth_x... "Dani said that his unit has had annual reunions on every March 27 since 1999 when a cake in the shape of the F-117 is served." Nice!
- TriinT 17y ago
  "The Americans entered the war a bit overconfident. They thought they could crush us without real resistance. At times, they acted like amateurs," Dani said, listing some ways the Serbs managed to breach NATO communications security, including eavesdropping on pilots' conversations with AWACS surveillance planes. "I personally listened to their pilots' conversations, learning about their routes and bombing plans," Dani said. So, the world's best Air Force goes to war and does not use encrypted communications? This is mind-boggling. To make matters worse, the NATO planes tended to follow the same routes every night. They were begging to be shot down. Last but not least, never underestimate the ferocity and tenacity of the Serbs. The Ottomans and the Nazis sure learned their lesson.
  - gaius 17y ago
    Complacency is often the downfall of large organizations. And it's complacency at high levels; Joe Pilot probably knew all about crypto, varying his routes, etc, but Jane General wouldn't sign off on the budget. That scenario will be familiar to anyone who's worked for a big company.
    - demallien 17y ago
      As an ex RAAF radar engineer, I'd say you're around about 180 degrees out of phase. There is always money available for security measures such as crypto etc - it's installed in all US aircraft(and indeed in nearly all of their allies' aircraft), and if it wasn't being used, it would be because people couldn't get their act together to keep keys synchronised and other bothersome administrative details. It would indicate a lack of discipline, particularly in the 'middle-management' level (around about Colonel level), not a lack of money. That said, I'm personally dubious about this story being true - it reads more like a Serbian trying to explain how clever he was against the dumb Americans, even though his country got its butt kicked. Certainly for the AWACS guys, comms security is their bread-and-butter, so I'd be really surprised to learn that they stuffed it up so badly...
      - varjag 17y ago
        > That said, I'm personally dubious about this story being true - it reads more like a Serbian trying to explain how clever he was against the dumb Americans, even though his country got its butt kicked. He never puts it that bluntly. And well, admit that he has something to brag about. As an ex RAAF radar engineer I'm sure you realize that scoring F-117 with ancient S-125 is no trivial feat. As to his country getting its ass kicked, well. Really, what other outcome was there ever possible, victorious Serbian banner over Washington?
        gaius 17y ago
        Well quite. The full might of NATO against an impoverished ex-Communist state approximately the size of Maine armed only with obsolete cast-offs. Well done America, you sure "kicked butt" there. Now imagine what might have happened if the USAF had actually had tried to go up against fully equipped Red Army air defences. So much for Stealth.
  - KiwiNige 17y ago
    "world's best Air Force" When measured by equipment?
    - TriinT 17y ago
      When measured by equipment, training, budget,... and arrogance.
    - demallien 17y ago
      Oh, I'd say when measured by capacity. I had the opportuniy several times to watch them in action - their toys are impressive - here are a couple of examples: 1) US F-16s up against Australian F-18s. In principle it should be a relatively level battle, but there's an important difference between the two aircraft - the F-16s are carrying AMRAAMs, whilst the Aussies had AIM9 Sidewinders. The AMRAAMS had standoff range - the F-16s could literally fire, and then turn tail and run, without ever entering the Australian missile range. The only successful way to engage them was to take them in a pincer movement, but that meant splitting your forces, they'd just turn and engage one group, which was now at half strength, and overwhelm with firepower... 2) Again, Oz vs US, the Aussies defending a site from attack. The radar was tracking the US aircraft coming in until they were about 200km away, at which point instead of just one flight of aircraft on the radar screen, we suddenly had three flights, each one performing seperate manoeuvres. They weren't just jamming the signal, they were generating alternative signals in real time, and basically feeding our antenna a pack of lies. We had to call in support from our over the horizon radar, just to figure out which was the real attack group... Of course, by the time that was done, they were already inside the defensive perimeter, so it was game over... The point to all of this being that when the USAF is on the ball, it is an unstoppable machine. From ECM, to stealth to missile tech, to surveillance, they are leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the world. Their aircraft can act pretty much with impunity wherever they want in the world, whenever they want. Their only error is thinking that Air Supremecy automatically translates to political victory on the ground...
      - berntb 17y ago
        Huh, the Sidewinder is a short range IR missile? The Australian air force doesn't use long range radar missiles?
  - miked 17y ago
    I very strongly suspect that these were not American planes at all, but rather those of certain other NATO countries. Indeed, Zoltan, as quoted, seems to continually conflate the terms "NATO" and "American". There was a lot of grumbling among the USAF back then about certain countries not encrypting their communications. Greece was one of these, although I don't think they participated in the war (they were big fans of Milosevic and welcomed him and his wife with huge gatherings at the Thessaloniki airport). Since Zoltan was not a native speaker of English, I doubt he could distinguish the accents of pilots from differnet countries, particularly as educated people in many NATO countries speak excellent English. What sticks out in my mind most is how happy Zoltan and his buddies are to celebrate defending the mass murders and rapes of Milosevic's Serbian Socialist Party. And with a cake in the shape of a plane. I wonder what flavor of frosting they use.
    - TriinT 17y ago
      Your analysis makes a lot of sense. But do NATO air forces other than the USAF have AWACS aircraft? I am not taking sides here, but do note that a soldier does what he is told. As far as I know, Zoltan did not murder any civilians. He was simply defending his country against an act of aggression. Given the atrocities committed by the Serbs, the aggression initiated by NATO may or may not have been justified. I will abstain from moral issues here. Last but not least: do note that Zoltan is of Hungarian (not Serbian) ethnicity, and Hungarians are not Slavs. I doubt he was ideologically aligned with Milosevic.
      - miked 17y ago
        But do NATO air forces other than the USAF have AWACS aircraft? Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_Early_Warning_and_Control http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_Early_Warning_and_Cont... ...do note that a soldier does what he is told. As far as I know, Zoltan did not murder any civilians. US military personnel needn't obey all orders, only lawful orders. Zoltan wasn't just obeying orders, he was working overtime to support human slaughter. He was simply defending his country against an act of aggression. I really don't know what to say to that. If someone breaks into your home and begins killing and raping your family, and you fight back, is the attacker "defending himself against an act of aggression?"
  - smanek 17y ago
    We've been trying to build a better radio system (JTRS) for over a decade. It's over budget, behind schedule, scaled back, and still not ready. At the current rate, the radios are going to cost over $30,000/each. I blame the Object Management Group (the good people who brought you CORBA) for being given too much influence in designing the architecture ;-) Although, I guess I can't complain too much since I am defense contractor (I'm hoping to build them a fancy compiler with some neat AI/heuristic static analysis goodness baked right in :-D).
  - miked 17y ago
    Last but not least, never underestimate the ferocity and tenacity of the Serbs. The Ottomans and the Nazis sure learned their lesson. So did the Bosnians, Croats, Kosovars, and Macedonians.
    - TriinT 17y ago
      You are ignorant. Go read about the Balkans, and come back when you are less ignorant. I used to be ignorant too, and cheered when NATO bombed Belgrade. One day I visited the Balkans and what the people there told me, made me change my mind completely. I am for life and for human rights. I am not against the Serbs. I am against the Serbs who committed atrocities. Moreover, not all Serbs are the same. The ethnical salad bowl in the Balkans is mind-boggling. Superficial analyses are plain stupid in this case.
      - Keyframe 17y ago
        Then you should realize that Serbia was massacred by the Ottomans and they ruled over Serbia for ~450 years... I don't get your point of them learning their lesson?
    - code_scrapping 17y ago
      This discussion is getting way off the subject of HN. If there is any moderation, it would be nice to see it happen.
      - plinkplonk 17y ago
        Moderation was nowhere in sight when Ted Kennedy's death was discussed ad nauseam here. If local (== US) politics didn't draw moderation I doubt international politics (war is an extension of politics?) will. I completely agree with you btw. The rights and wrongs of any war (vs any technical hacks etc) are way off HN's focus. The suggested policy is apparently to flag any offending comments and keep quiet about it. How effective that policy is debatable.
        davidw 17y ago

by TriinT 17y ago

gaius 17y ago

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-10-26-serb-stealth_x.htm http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-10-26-serb-stealth_x... "Dani said that his unit has had annual reunions on every March 27 since 1999 when a cake in the shape of the F-117 is served." Nice!

TriinT 17y ago
"The Americans entered the war a bit overconfident. They thought they could crush us without real resistance. At times, they acted like amateurs," Dani said, listing some ways the Serbs managed to breach NATO communications security, including eavesdropping on pilots' conversations with AWACS surveillance planes. "I personally listened to their pilots' conversations, learning about their routes and bombing plans," Dani said. So, the world's best Air Force goes to war and does not use encrypted communications? This is mind-boggling. To make matters worse, the NATO planes tended to follow the same routes every night. They were begging to be shot down. Last but not least, never underestimate the ferocity and tenacity of the Serbs. The Ottomans and the Nazis sure learned their lesson.
- gaius 17y ago
  Complacency is often the downfall of large organizations. And it's complacency at high levels; Joe Pilot probably knew all about crypto, varying his routes, etc, but Jane General wouldn't sign off on the budget. That scenario will be familiar to anyone who's worked for a big company.
  - demallien 17y ago
    As an ex RAAF radar engineer, I'd say you're around about 180 degrees out of phase. There is always money available for security measures such as crypto etc - it's installed in all US aircraft(and indeed in nearly all of their allies' aircraft), and if it wasn't being used, it would be because people couldn't get their act together to keep keys synchronised and other bothersome administrative details. It would indicate a lack of discipline, particularly in the 'middle-management' level (around about Colonel level), not a lack of money. That said, I'm personally dubious about this story being true - it reads more like a Serbian trying to explain how clever he was against the dumb Americans, even though his country got its butt kicked. Certainly for the AWACS guys, comms security is their bread-and-butter, so I'd be really surprised to learn that they stuffed it up so badly...
    - varjag 17y ago
      > That said, I'm personally dubious about this story being true - it reads more like a Serbian trying to explain how clever he was against the dumb Americans, even though his country got its butt kicked. He never puts it that bluntly. And well, admit that he has something to brag about. As an ex RAAF radar engineer I'm sure you realize that scoring F-117 with ancient S-125 is no trivial feat. As to his country getting its ass kicked, well. Really, what other outcome was there ever possible, victorious Serbian banner over Washington?
      - gaius 17y ago
        Well quite. The full might of NATO against an impoverished ex-Communist state approximately the size of Maine armed only with obsolete cast-offs. Well done America, you sure "kicked butt" there. Now imagine what might have happened if the USAF had actually had tried to go up against fully equipped Red Army air defences. So much for Stealth.
- KiwiNige 17y ago
  "world's best Air Force" When measured by equipment?
  - TriinT 17y ago
    When measured by equipment, training, budget,... and arrogance.
  - demallien 17y ago
    Oh, I'd say when measured by capacity. I had the opportuniy several times to watch them in action - their toys are impressive - here are a couple of examples: 1) US F-16s up against Australian F-18s. In principle it should be a relatively level battle, but there's an important difference between the two aircraft - the F-16s are carrying AMRAAMs, whilst the Aussies had AIM9 Sidewinders. The AMRAAMS had standoff range - the F-16s could literally fire, and then turn tail and run, without ever entering the Australian missile range. The only successful way to engage them was to take them in a pincer movement, but that meant splitting your forces, they'd just turn and engage one group, which was now at half strength, and overwhelm with firepower... 2) Again, Oz vs US, the Aussies defending a site from attack. The radar was tracking the US aircraft coming in until they were about 200km away, at which point instead of just one flight of aircraft on the radar screen, we suddenly had three flights, each one performing seperate manoeuvres. They weren't just jamming the signal, they were generating alternative signals in real time, and basically feeding our antenna a pack of lies. We had to call in support from our over the horizon radar, just to figure out which was the real attack group... Of course, by the time that was done, they were already inside the defensive perimeter, so it was game over... The point to all of this being that when the USAF is on the ball, it is an unstoppable machine. From ECM, to stealth to missile tech, to surveillance, they are leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the world. Their aircraft can act pretty much with impunity wherever they want in the world, whenever they want. Their only error is thinking that Air Supremecy automatically translates to political victory on the ground...
    - berntb 17y ago
      Huh, the Sidewinder is a short range IR missile? The Australian air force doesn't use long range radar missiles?
- miked 17y ago
  I very strongly suspect that these were not American planes at all, but rather those of certain other NATO countries. Indeed, Zoltan, as quoted, seems to continually conflate the terms "NATO" and "American". There was a lot of grumbling among the USAF back then about certain countries not encrypting their communications. Greece was one of these, although I don't think they participated in the war (they were big fans of Milosevic and welcomed him and his wife with huge gatherings at the Thessaloniki airport). Since Zoltan was not a native speaker of English, I doubt he could distinguish the accents of pilots from differnet countries, particularly as educated people in many NATO countries speak excellent English. What sticks out in my mind most is how happy Zoltan and his buddies are to celebrate defending the mass murders and rapes of Milosevic's Serbian Socialist Party. And with a cake in the shape of a plane. I wonder what flavor of frosting they use.
  - TriinT 17y ago
    Your analysis makes a lot of sense. But do NATO air forces other than the USAF have AWACS aircraft? I am not taking sides here, but do note that a soldier does what he is told. As far as I know, Zoltan did not murder any civilians. He was simply defending his country against an act of aggression. Given the atrocities committed by the Serbs, the aggression initiated by NATO may or may not have been justified. I will abstain from moral issues here. Last but not least: do note that Zoltan is of Hungarian (not Serbian) ethnicity, and Hungarians are not Slavs. I doubt he was ideologically aligned with Milosevic.
    - miked 17y ago
      But do NATO air forces other than the USAF have AWACS aircraft? Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_Early_Warning_and_Control http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_Early_Warning_and_Cont... ...do note that a soldier does what he is told. As far as I know, Zoltan did not murder any civilians. US military personnel needn't obey all orders, only lawful orders. Zoltan wasn't just obeying orders, he was working overtime to support human slaughter. He was simply defending his country against an act of aggression. I really don't know what to say to that. If someone breaks into your home and begins killing and raping your family, and you fight back, is the attacker "defending himself against an act of aggression?"
- smanek 17y ago
  We've been trying to build a better radio system (JTRS) for over a decade. It's over budget, behind schedule, scaled back, and still not ready. At the current rate, the radios are going to cost over $30,000/each. I blame the Object Management Group (the good people who brought you CORBA) for being given too much influence in designing the architecture ;-) Although, I guess I can't complain too much since I am defense contractor (I'm hoping to build them a fancy compiler with some neat AI/heuristic static analysis goodness baked right in :-D).
- miked 17y ago
  Last but not least, never underestimate the ferocity and tenacity of the Serbs. The Ottomans and the Nazis sure learned their lesson. So did the Bosnians, Croats, Kosovars, and Macedonians.
  - TriinT 17y ago
    You are ignorant. Go read about the Balkans, and come back when you are less ignorant. I used to be ignorant too, and cheered when NATO bombed Belgrade. One day I visited the Balkans and what the people there told me, made me change my mind completely. I am for life and for human rights. I am not against the Serbs. I am against the Serbs who committed atrocities. Moreover, not all Serbs are the same. The ethnical salad bowl in the Balkans is mind-boggling. Superficial analyses are plain stupid in this case.
    - Keyframe 17y ago
      Then you should realize that Serbia was massacred by the Ottomans and they ruled over Serbia for ~450 years... I don't get your point of them learning their lesson?
  - code_scrapping 17y ago
    This discussion is getting way off the subject of HN. If there is any moderation, it would be nice to see it happen.
    - plinkplonk 17y ago
      Moderation was nowhere in sight when Ted Kennedy's death was discussed ad nauseam here. If local (== US) politics didn't draw moderation I doubt international politics (war is an extension of politics?) will. I completely agree with you btw. The rights and wrongs of any war (vs any technical hacks etc) are way off HN's focus. The suggested policy is apparently to flag any offending comments and keep quiet about it. How effective that policy is debatable.
      - davidw 17y ago